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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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welcome back to the UFO Rabbit Hole

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podcast I'm your host Kelly Chase

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today we welcome back Dr James Madden to

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the show as you'll recall Jim joined us

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a couple of weeks ago for a discussion

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about Plato's Cave we also discussed

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some of his latest work applying the

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philosophical concept of the umvelt to

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the UFO phenomenon and I was really

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excited to see that that episode has

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become one of the most listened to

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episodes of the podcast because it's

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definitely one of my favorites if you

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haven't listened to that episode yet I

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highly recommend that you go back to

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that one first Jim's work Builds on

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itself and it'll be helpful to lay down

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the foundation with that episode before

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moving on to this one

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in this episode we'll be moving on to Dr

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James Madden's latest work over the last

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few months in a flurry of Articles

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released through his sub stack Jim has

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laid out a series of arguments as to the

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nature of the UFO phenomenon that are

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frankly mind-blowing it's not

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overstating things to say that what Jim

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has done is to essentially break ufology

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and I mean that in the best possible way

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because in many ways it's been clear to

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anyone who's really paying attention

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that the traditional models and

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ontologies that have dominated modern

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ufology have needed to break we began

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this podcast talking about what the UFO

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phenomenon might be and we did a deep

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dive into the primary hypotheses

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including extraterrestrial

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ultra-terrestrial interdimensional Etc

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and all of those models are really

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useful for helping us to push our

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thinking about what the intelligence

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behind UFOs may represent

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but if we're being really honest with

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ourselves we have to admit that none of

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them really fit they come close in some

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ways fall short in others and ultimately

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leave us feeling like we're trying to

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stretch a full-size sheet over a

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queen-size bed

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what we've needed desperately is a model

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that would collapse all of those

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ontological categories and integrate

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them into a larger and more coherent

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whole and I'd argue that what Dr Madden

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is postulating with regard to the UFO

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phenomenon does exactly that

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I truly believe that what he's pointing

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to here is the future of ufology this

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work is urgent and critically important

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for us moving forward

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that said these Concepts aren't easy to

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grok initially but I also promise you

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that you don't need a PhD to understand

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this stuff all you need is a little

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patience and the willingness to be

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uncomfortable while your perspective

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shifts this episode starts by throwing

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you in the deep end and unless you

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majored in philosophy it's likely going

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to feel that way for the first several

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minutes you're likely going to find

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yourself asking why are we talking about

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what a table is when I came here to talk

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about UFOs

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but I promise you that all of this is

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highly relevant and highly critical to

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understanding where we're headed next so

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don't worry about trying to drink from

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the fire hose all at once just get a

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little wet and around the 30 minute Mark

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you should hopefully feel these ideas

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begin to come together in a way that

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makes sense

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I also have included tons of additional

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resources in the episode description

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that can help if you get lost so be sure

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to check that out

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so without further Ado let's get to it

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here is my conversation with Dr James

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Madden

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one of the things that I find so

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interesting about studying UFOs is that

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you start asking if UFOs are real and

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then suddenly you find yourself asking

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anything is real and what reality

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actually is and so you start

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interrogating all of your underlying

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assumptions about reality but something

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that I've come to realize is that even

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identifying your underlying assumptions

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is tough there are ideas that are so

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fundamental to the shared reality of the

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cave that you can just like look right

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past them without even noticing that

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they're there and in reading your recent

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work I realized that one of the most

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basic assumptions that we use to parse

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the UFO phenomenon has to do with what

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an object even is like we spend a lot of

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time talking about the unidentified part

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we spent a lot of time even talking

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about the flying part but we just assume

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that we and everyone else knows what

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we're talking about we talk about what

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an object is but it's become clear to me

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that even my concepts of what constitute

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an object are deeply Prejudiced and so I

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really wanted to start there you and I

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have been talking a lot about object

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oriented ontology and that's something

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you've really been diving into in your

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work so

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what does all of that mean how can we

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start to think about objects in a way

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that's going to be more helpful for us

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excellent you know as always Kelly you

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just blew me away there like with how

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How Deeply you get it right okay so uh

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um yeah that's awesome so first of all I

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had what your opening statements are

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basically my hour and 15 minute

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conversation with my students this

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morning in my UFO class about how

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we're kind of winding it up now and it's

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just how they've come to see that the

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UFO issue is this incredible thing that

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just busts open your overall ontology in

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ways and forces you to ask these like

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really serious questions very broad

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questions broadly sweeping questions

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even if it is no longer about the UFO

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anymore right that you've been dragged

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out of the cave in a way so yeah good

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good getting it right also

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I've throughout the last three years or

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so when I've been like dipping my toe in

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and getting interested into the UFO

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I've simultaneously been getting

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interested in what's known as

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object-oriented ontology okay so like

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these two things have sort of dovetailed

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there's a little synchronicity action

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there going for me and I think it makes

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sense because I think object-oriented

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ontology is a great sense making tool

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for the UFO and so I even think of it as

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like unidentified flying object-oriented

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ontology like I love the word object you

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could have been a diagram overlap with

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the phrases there okay

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so I guess should we just start with

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talking about what triple o is what

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object-oriented ontology is would that

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be a good way yeah that's a great place

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to start yeah okay I want to give the

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right people to do I'm not the harbinger

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of object-oriented ontology name it most

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closely associated with it is a guy

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named Graham Harman okay

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and I highly recommend anybody who wants

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a quick read on this is you go find a

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paper of his that's pretty readily

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available on the internet called the

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third table also he has a number of

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introductory books in object-oriented

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ontology one is just simply called

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object oriented ontology a new Theory of

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Everything other one is called the

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quadruple object those are both very

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good places to start so I'm going to

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begin by

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trying to do Graham Harmon some justice

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here but I'm not his official spokesman

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but I would love to be corrected by

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Graham personally so anyway okay so you

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know the name object-orient ontology so

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let's start with ontology okay what is

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ontology so ontology is

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the implicit or explicit understanding

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of what there is that we all carry

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around okay it's like on we all have a

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basic categorization of what beans there

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are okay

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and ontology is the act of trying to

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make That explicit and so what

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object-oriented ontologies is an attempt

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at categorizing the basic things that

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there are in a novel way in this

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object-oriented way okay and to say like

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you think of the very name kind of

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sounds redundant well what else would be

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oriented to in an ontology but objects

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so let me explain the object part which

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is the interesting part okay and

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Harmon's big point and his point that

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shows up in all of his work is that in

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the western philosophical tradition

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we have constantly been swinging back

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and forth between two extreme poles in

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ontology one he calls undermining and

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one he calls over mining okay the play

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on undermine with overmine so what does

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he mean by undermining so undermining is

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more or less what we hear in talk about

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reductionism today that's a buzzword you

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hear quite a bit and you can see already

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Plato and aerosol especially Aristotle

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are struggling against an undermining

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tendency in the pre-socratic

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philosophers

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and basically what was going on already

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at that point was you had more or less

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materialist philosophers understanding

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that everything that is in our tangible

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world like our world of ordinary objects

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that we Orient to ourselves to

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practically have finer grained physical

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constituents and there are various

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theories of what these finer grain

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constituents were you know for some the

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most common Greek View is it's earth air

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water and fire

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and they knew that if you took a tree

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and you chopped it down and let it sit

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it would rot and turn to earth right or

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if you burnt it you got it hot enough

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fire would come out of it right if you

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squeezed it enough right fluids would

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come out of it right and so they had a

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sense that everything had this earth air

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water fire stuff in it okay so they

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figured well it must be that that's what

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things are made out of other uh

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pre-socratic philosophers had views you

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know that if you if you start chopping

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things apart you're going to get smaller

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and smaller and smaller pieces so there

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must be a smallest piece that you can

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get to call it the atom is what they

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called it and that's the ultimate

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situences of things so you had various

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theories of what the ultimate

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constituents were already in ancient

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Athens but a lot of the pre-socratic

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philosophers said well that's the whole

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story right if we just know the basic

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constituents then we know all there is

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to know right like what's really what

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objects are is they just are assemblages

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of these finer grain constituents no

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more no less and so what do you make of

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then you know things like Consciousness

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what do you make of things like life

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what do you make of things like purpose

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and meaning and all this there really

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were philosophers like Democritus

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uh epicurus right in the ancient world

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where you can say well these are sort of

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like Illusions these are not really part

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of what there is there's it's just all

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atoms in the void I mean you already had

276
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that view then it's not a new view and

277
00:10:35,750 --> 00:10:33,480
so Aristotle much of what he's doing is

278
00:10:38,210 --> 00:10:35,760
trying to give an argument against that

279
00:10:40,550 --> 00:10:38,220
kind of undermining or reductionist view

280
00:10:42,170 --> 00:10:40,560
now he doesn't deny that the finer grain

281
00:10:44,690 --> 00:10:42,180
constituents are real things if they're

282
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:44,700
real objects but he is arguing for a

283
00:10:47,870 --> 00:10:46,560
kind of ontological pluralism that we're

284
00:10:49,610 --> 00:10:47,880
going to have more categories we're

285
00:10:51,650 --> 00:10:49,620
going to have more than just the

286
00:10:53,509 --> 00:10:51,660
smallest parts of things we're going to

287
00:10:56,090 --> 00:10:53,519
also have the things possess those parts

288
00:10:58,370 --> 00:10:56,100
in Aristotle when he takes this up

289
00:11:00,410 --> 00:10:58,380
he says well look let's just use a

290
00:11:02,269 --> 00:11:00,420
hackneyed example right okay so you have

291
00:11:03,970 --> 00:11:02,279
I'll use a table because that's Harmon's

292
00:11:06,829 --> 00:11:03,980
example all right we have a table right

293
00:11:09,350 --> 00:11:06,839
that table no doubt is made up of

294
00:11:11,930 --> 00:11:09,360
proximate Parts it has legs and drawers

295
00:11:15,290 --> 00:11:11,940
and a top surface what have you and

296
00:11:17,930 --> 00:11:15,300
those are also assemblages of screws and

297
00:11:19,610 --> 00:11:17,940
glue and wood etc etc and all of that's

298
00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:19,620
going to be an assemblage of something

299
00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:21,540
subatomic what have you for Aristotle

300
00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:23,519
earth air water fire but we're over that

301
00:11:27,829 --> 00:11:24,720
okay

302
00:11:30,170 --> 00:11:27,839
so Aristotle isn't denying that the

303
00:11:34,069 --> 00:11:30,180
table has these parts but he also is

304
00:11:36,110 --> 00:11:34,079
very acutely aware that the table has

305
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:36,120
properties that none of those parts have

306
00:11:40,490 --> 00:11:38,640
so the parts themselves you could take a

307
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:40,500
sledgehammer smash the table up or you

308
00:11:43,790 --> 00:11:42,000
could take the table and run it through

309
00:11:45,290 --> 00:11:43,800
a wood chipper and you would in some

310
00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:45,300
sense have all the parts but you

311
00:11:49,610 --> 00:11:48,060
wouldn't have a table okay so that kind

312
00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:49,620
of argumentation says there so well

313
00:11:54,470 --> 00:11:51,839
there's a difference between the table

314
00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:54,480
and the parts of the table so in a way

315
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:55,920
he's going to say you've really got two

316
00:12:00,769 --> 00:11:57,839
things there you've got the parts and

317
00:12:02,389 --> 00:12:00,779
then you've got the table and so he

318
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:02,399
would say there must be some attribute

319
00:12:05,210 --> 00:12:03,600
or properties

320
00:12:07,250 --> 00:12:05,220
that tables have that their parts don't

321
00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:07,260
have and he has things in mind like the

322
00:12:12,110 --> 00:12:10,140
table is suitable for setting books on

323
00:12:14,630 --> 00:12:12,120
or the table is suitable for conducting

324
00:12:16,430 --> 00:12:14,640
a podcast on or it's suitable for this

325
00:12:18,110 --> 00:12:16,440
or that there's something it does it has

326
00:12:20,810 --> 00:12:18,120
an activity in this case it's a passive

327
00:12:23,329 --> 00:12:20,820
activity but it has an activity that the

328
00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:23,339
parts don't have you it's not really you

329
00:12:27,410 --> 00:12:25,200
know a pile of sawdust isn't suitable

330
00:12:29,870 --> 00:12:27,420
for setting your books on or what have

331
00:12:33,230 --> 00:12:29,880
you so in that sense Aristotle wants to

332
00:12:35,630 --> 00:12:33,240
say is look a table has some kind of

333
00:12:38,750 --> 00:12:35,640
ontological standing over and above or

334
00:12:40,310 --> 00:12:38,760
distinct from right it's just merely the

335
00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:40,320
assemblage of its parts but there's more

336
00:12:44,629 --> 00:12:42,300
so like like tables aren't terribly

337
00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:44,639
interesting objects okay so Aristotle

338
00:12:48,410 --> 00:12:46,560
would also say so if you have something

339
00:12:51,710 --> 00:12:48,420
that is truly emerging meaning it has

340
00:12:53,690 --> 00:12:51,720
attributes or it has a kind of agency or

341
00:12:56,269 --> 00:12:53,700
it has a developmental course that's

342
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:56,279
distinct from its parts he thinks it

343
00:13:00,530 --> 00:12:59,040
deserves substancehood it's an object of

344
00:13:01,790 --> 00:13:00,540
its own even though it's dependent on

345
00:13:04,670 --> 00:13:01,800
its parts and I think it's very

346
00:13:06,829 --> 00:13:04,680
interesting with organisms okay so table

347
00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:06,839
is really nothing more than rotting wood

348
00:13:13,009 --> 00:13:10,980
right but say a living organism is doing

349
00:13:14,690 --> 00:13:13,019
something it has goals it's moving

350
00:13:17,210 --> 00:13:14,700
towards it's trying to maintain itself

351
00:13:19,310 --> 00:13:17,220
it has a kind of agency okay so an

352
00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:19,320
Aristotle's view living things are more

353
00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:22,160
ontologically sound they're more

354
00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:24,240
ontologically independent and

355
00:13:27,829 --> 00:13:25,980
deservative of their own category than

356
00:13:29,930 --> 00:13:27,839
artifacts are because they do something

357
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:29,940
on their own also Aristotle is

358
00:13:35,150 --> 00:13:31,680
interested in the fact that something

359
00:13:37,069 --> 00:13:35,160
that exerts a control over its parts has

360
00:13:39,590 --> 00:13:37,079
a kind of ontological standing over and

361
00:13:41,930 --> 00:13:39,600
against its parts okay so if you think

362
00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:41,940
of it like if we put organic molecules

363
00:13:46,009 --> 00:13:43,620
in your body or we put elements in your

364
00:13:47,389 --> 00:13:46,019
body they are going to behave

365
00:13:49,069 --> 00:13:47,399
differently there than they will when

366
00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:49,079
they're not in the composition think of

367
00:13:52,610 --> 00:13:51,180
a phenomenal like epigenetics where like

368
00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:52,620
what goes on in the whole of the

369
00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:54,240
organism has a downward effect on the

370
00:13:57,170 --> 00:13:55,920
parts they come up all sorts of examples

371
00:13:59,569 --> 00:13:57,180
like this where it seems like the

372
00:14:01,970 --> 00:13:59,579
organized hole has a kind of control

373
00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:01,980
over the parts in that case Aristotle

374
00:14:06,110 --> 00:14:03,480
says yeah look so it looks like the

375
00:14:08,449 --> 00:14:06,120
whole has a stain ending it's not just

376
00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:08,459
the parts it's the parts but also

377
00:14:11,810 --> 00:14:10,079
something else that's composed of them

378
00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:11,820
all right another thing that siblings

379
00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:13,560
will bring up in this manner is the

380
00:14:19,730 --> 00:14:16,200
notion of independent identity criteria

381
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:19,740
so I can take one screw out of a desk

382
00:14:23,449 --> 00:14:21,600
and replace it with another screw right

383
00:14:25,910 --> 00:14:23,459
and replace one piece of wood in the

384
00:14:27,650 --> 00:14:25,920
desk and place another one over time I

385
00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:27,660
can replace all those parts and we would

386
00:14:31,190 --> 00:14:29,100
probably still say we have the same desk

387
00:14:33,290 --> 00:14:31,200
okay so you can think of it now there's

388
00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:33,300
conditions in which the desk exists when

389
00:14:38,690 --> 00:14:36,240
the parts don't so it's very hard to say

390
00:14:39,769 --> 00:14:38,700
the desk just is the parts likewise an

391
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:39,779
organism through the process of

392
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:42,000
metabolism even down to the atomic level

393
00:14:45,050 --> 00:14:43,440
you're going to change over all your

394
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:45,060
parts was it like they said every seven

395
00:14:48,170 --> 00:14:46,560
years or whatever I have no idea if

396
00:14:49,490 --> 00:14:48,180
that's true but anyway but you're

397
00:14:51,710 --> 00:14:49,500
changing out Parts all the time but you

398
00:14:53,449 --> 00:14:51,720
maintain your identity so here's the

399
00:14:54,650 --> 00:14:53,459
point is it looks like there's a case to

400
00:14:56,509 --> 00:14:54,660
be made of course this is controversial

401
00:14:59,329 --> 00:14:56,519
like everything in philosophy that if

402
00:15:02,810 --> 00:14:59,339
something has its own powers its own

403
00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:02,820
properties if it has independent control

404
00:15:08,449 --> 00:15:06,000
over some of its parts and if it can

405
00:15:10,189 --> 00:15:08,459
survive the replacement of its parts we

406
00:15:12,650 --> 00:15:10,199
have to say it's an object in its own

407
00:15:15,290 --> 00:15:12,660
right okay and by that aristillion

408
00:15:17,930 --> 00:15:15,300
argument it's like you save the tables

409
00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:17,940
the chairs the score roles the human

410
00:15:23,629 --> 00:15:21,180
beings the trees all these things from

411
00:15:25,730 --> 00:15:23,639
being simply undermined into

412
00:15:27,290 --> 00:15:25,740
these physical constituents standard

413
00:15:29,750 --> 00:15:27,300
argument for history philosophy and

414
00:15:31,069 --> 00:15:29,760
Harman as object oriented ontologists in

415
00:15:34,250 --> 00:15:31,079
General accept that argument like yeah

416
00:15:35,870 --> 00:15:34,260
there's more under Heaven than just the

417
00:15:37,009 --> 00:15:35,880
molecules all right

418
00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:37,019
now

419
00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:38,760
what about over mining okay so what's

420
00:15:45,949 --> 00:15:42,600
over money over mining is basically the

421
00:15:49,329 --> 00:15:45,959
idea that all objects are the role they

422
00:15:51,829 --> 00:15:49,339
play in our human schemes of things okay

423
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:51,839
so in Prior conversations we've talked

424
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:54,240
about the the um belt right

425
00:16:00,889 --> 00:15:56,880
and what is the Umba well the umeld is

426
00:16:03,590 --> 00:16:00,899
the the world picture that we operate by

427
00:16:05,569 --> 00:16:03,600
given the basic human perceptual

428
00:16:08,030 --> 00:16:05,579
apparatus or any organism's basic

429
00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:08,040
perceptual apparatus that's relative to

430
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:09,360
the survival strategies of that animal

431
00:16:12,949 --> 00:16:11,279
and I think we can make a case that

432
00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:12,959
anything we have access to it's always

433
00:16:18,110 --> 00:16:15,240
through that um belt

434
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:18,120
there's a tendency then to say well all

435
00:16:23,870 --> 00:16:22,320
there is to the world is our umbelt our

436
00:16:26,569 --> 00:16:23,880
framing of things and there's nothing

437
00:16:28,730 --> 00:16:26,579
deeper to it than just how we happen to

438
00:16:30,769 --> 00:16:28,740
frame it or other intelligence

439
00:16:32,750 --> 00:16:30,779
species might happen for him or even how

440
00:16:34,250 --> 00:16:32,760
other non-intelligent species might

441
00:16:36,769 --> 00:16:34,260
happen to frame it that the world has no

442
00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:36,779
Integrity in its own it's just a

443
00:16:40,850 --> 00:16:39,360
construction of the various perceptual

444
00:16:42,470 --> 00:16:40,860
strategies of the animals involved in it

445
00:16:44,410 --> 00:16:42,480
and this is so on the one hand like

446
00:16:46,970 --> 00:16:44,420
undermining leads us to the kind of like

447
00:16:49,249 --> 00:16:46,980
nihilistic materialism that one might

448
00:16:50,749 --> 00:16:49,259
worry about over mining leads us to kind

449
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:50,759
of like an almost a nihilistic social

450
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:52,800
constructivism there is no world in

451
00:16:57,470 --> 00:16:54,240
itself it's all just our construction

452
00:16:59,449 --> 00:16:57,480
okay and Harmon thinks that is the

453
00:17:00,829 --> 00:16:59,459
opposite error that we face as a

454
00:17:04,130 --> 00:17:00,839
tendency in

455
00:17:06,949 --> 00:17:04,140
Western philosophy and his point there

456
00:17:08,750 --> 00:17:06,959
against overmining is just a simple fact

457
00:17:11,090 --> 00:17:08,760
that we are often surprised by the world

458
00:17:13,429 --> 00:17:11,100
that the world does indeed push back

459
00:17:15,289 --> 00:17:13,439
against our constructions of it and so

460
00:17:17,569 --> 00:17:15,299
it seems like we can't just say it's our

461
00:17:20,090 --> 00:17:17,579
construction because it does surprise us

462
00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:20,100
it does introduce things that are spooky

463
00:17:25,610 --> 00:17:23,280
and weird right and so he sees

464
00:17:27,710 --> 00:17:25,620
overmining as this sort of like kind of

465
00:17:29,570 --> 00:17:27,720
vulgar humanism in a way like it assumes

466
00:17:31,070 --> 00:17:29,580
that there couldn't be something running

467
00:17:33,710 --> 00:17:31,080
this that isn't our own construction

468
00:17:35,690 --> 00:17:33,720
right but again and again human thought

469
00:17:37,610 --> 00:17:35,700
is revealed as really not running this

470
00:17:39,650 --> 00:17:37,620
so what does Harmon saying they say okay

471
00:17:41,570 --> 00:17:39,660
so there's we don't undermine we don't

472
00:17:42,529 --> 00:17:41,580
overmind it and that seems to tell us

473
00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:42,539
then

474
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:45,780
what objects are is not fully captured

475
00:17:48,409 --> 00:17:47,520
by our scientific schemes that would

476
00:17:50,570 --> 00:17:48,419
reduce them to their physical

477
00:17:53,630 --> 00:17:50,580
constituents and they're not fully

478
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:53,640
captured by our ordinary perceptual

479
00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:55,200
schemings of them or our political

480
00:17:58,669 --> 00:17:56,880
packagings of them or whatever however

481
00:18:02,570 --> 00:17:58,679
we package them there's something else

482
00:18:06,049 --> 00:18:02,580
right so there is the table just the

483
00:18:09,289 --> 00:18:06,059
electrons and quarks of particle physics

484
00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:09,299
it's not just that right is it just its

485
00:18:13,730 --> 00:18:11,520
role in our social situation it's not

486
00:18:16,190 --> 00:18:13,740
just that it's this third thing and for

487
00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:16,200
Harman that third thing is never fully

488
00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:18,960
accessible to us it's always something

489
00:18:22,250 --> 00:18:21,240
in between those okay so are you with me

490
00:18:25,250 --> 00:18:22,260
so far

491
00:18:28,370 --> 00:18:25,260
yes it's and I already find this very

492
00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:28,380
helpful yes okay yeah I've done it a

493
00:18:31,850 --> 00:18:29,760
little more slowly here than I had did

494
00:18:32,930 --> 00:18:31,860
in the essays right so we've talked

495
00:18:34,610 --> 00:18:32,940
about the notion of ontological

496
00:18:37,250 --> 00:18:34,620
promiscuity in the past right my

497
00:18:39,289 --> 00:18:37,260
favorite yeah I'm proudly ontologically

498
00:18:41,690 --> 00:18:39,299
promiscuous right and you can see why

499
00:18:44,270 --> 00:18:41,700
object-oriented ontology becomes very

500
00:18:45,890 --> 00:18:44,280
ontologically promiscuous because it's

501
00:18:48,590 --> 00:18:45,900
basically saying look there's a great

502
00:18:51,049 --> 00:18:48,600
big Uber um belt out there and our

503
00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:51,059
science doesn't get it our ordinary

504
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:53,520
social framings of things our caves

505
00:18:58,190 --> 00:18:56,160
don't get it right and so what is it

506
00:19:00,169 --> 00:18:58,200
there's something out there right and

507
00:19:02,150 --> 00:19:00,179
and think of it if harman's right you're

508
00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:02,160
picking up this coffee cup right now

509
00:19:08,270 --> 00:19:05,360
okay if harman's right all I'm getting

510
00:19:10,010 --> 00:19:08,280
whether I analyze this coffee cup

511
00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:10,020
through the particle physics where I

512
00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:12,360
analyze this coffee cup through you know

513
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:15,120
the social cultural analysis of it it's

514
00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:17,520
not the cup it's just a caricature of it

515
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:19,620
and what the cup is is this immensely

516
00:19:25,370 --> 00:19:23,039
greater thing okay that it gets a vote

517
00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:25,380
in how things are independently of how

518
00:19:29,510 --> 00:19:27,600
we conceptualize it scientifically or

519
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:29,520
how we vote in it being in our political

520
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:32,400
cultural ski means so already if you go

521
00:19:38,570 --> 00:19:35,520
that route of option ontology you're in

522
00:19:41,390 --> 00:19:38,580
a very very open-ended maybe even Spooky

523
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:41,400
World where you realize like the table

524
00:19:44,930 --> 00:19:42,960
isn't just the table you think it is

525
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,940
right the comp isn't just the cup you

526
00:19:48,110 --> 00:19:46,559
think it is the squirrel in the yard is

527
00:19:49,909 --> 00:19:48,120
not just the squirrel nut etc etc like

528
00:19:52,850 --> 00:19:49,919
everything is kind of opened and in

529
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:52,860
everything withdraws it more than it

530
00:19:56,270 --> 00:19:54,720
shows itself to you right there's a

531
00:19:57,950 --> 00:19:56,280
constant withdrawal of the object from

532
00:19:59,870 --> 00:19:57,960
you and I find that one I find the

533
00:20:01,970 --> 00:19:59,880
arguments for it very very strong and

534
00:20:03,770 --> 00:20:01,980
two I find it like an incredibly

535
00:20:05,630 --> 00:20:03,780
compelling almost romantic way of

536
00:20:08,690 --> 00:20:05,640
looking at the world right

537
00:20:11,450 --> 00:20:08,700
so that's my that's my quick take on

538
00:20:13,490 --> 00:20:11,460
opportunity ontology all right

539
00:20:15,049 --> 00:20:13,500
um so I think though where you want to

540
00:20:15,770 --> 00:20:15,059
go those we want to talk hyper objects

541
00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:15,780
right

542
00:20:20,270 --> 00:20:17,700
yes and in some ways I feel like talking

543
00:20:22,130 --> 00:20:20,280
about hyper objects because it can be a

544
00:20:24,830 --> 00:20:22,140
little difficult I think especially if

545
00:20:26,990 --> 00:20:24,840
this is a new idea for people to think

546
00:20:29,810 --> 00:20:27,000
about how the table is not just the

547
00:20:31,730 --> 00:20:29,820
table but I think that the idea of the

548
00:20:33,830 --> 00:20:31,740
hyper object in some ways even though

549
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:33,840
it's more complex kind of helped me get

550
00:20:37,730 --> 00:20:35,760
there because with the hyper object it

551
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:37,740
becomes more clear how the table is not

552
00:20:41,029 --> 00:20:39,360
just the table Yeah I actually think

553
00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:41,039
pedagogically it's easier the hybrid

554
00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:43,200
objects easier to get and in an

555
00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:45,120
important text which after I publish

556
00:20:48,350 --> 00:20:47,039
that essay on my sub stack I wish I had

557
00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:48,360
included this quote there's a place

558
00:20:52,130 --> 00:20:50,160
where Harman actually says in a sense

559
00:20:53,810 --> 00:20:52,140
all objects are hyper objects yes

560
00:20:56,930 --> 00:20:53,820
they're all bigger than we frame them

561
00:20:59,450 --> 00:20:56,940
okay I love Harmon's example of Pizza

562
00:21:01,010 --> 00:20:59,460
Hut so we'll go with that one all right

563
00:21:03,470 --> 00:21:01,020
so in one of his books I think it's in

564
00:21:05,330 --> 00:21:03,480
object-oriented ontology Harman uses

565
00:21:06,590 --> 00:21:05,340
example of your average Pizza Hut

566
00:21:08,750 --> 00:21:06,600
restaurant now

567
00:21:10,490 --> 00:21:08,760
what is an object what is a thing in its

568
00:21:12,110 --> 00:21:10,500
own right it's something that has its

569
00:21:13,970 --> 00:21:12,120
own attributes that that are not

570
00:21:16,669 --> 00:21:13,980
possessed by its parts it's something

571
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:16,679
that has control over its parts okay and

572
00:21:20,330 --> 00:21:18,480
it's something that can survive The

573
00:21:21,169 --> 00:21:20,340
Replacements of its parts if you think

574
00:21:24,409 --> 00:21:21,179
of it

575
00:21:26,510 --> 00:21:24,419
a Pizza Hut restaurant satisfies all of

576
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:26,520
those conditions as well as you do think

577
00:21:30,590 --> 00:21:28,799
of it like if you are an employee of

578
00:21:32,510 --> 00:21:30,600
Pizza Hut or a customer at Pizza Hut

579
00:21:34,730 --> 00:21:32,520
does that affect your behavior it

580
00:21:35,870 --> 00:21:34,740
definitely does right like it or not

581
00:21:37,070 --> 00:21:35,880
when you walk in the Pizza Hut

582
00:21:39,470 --> 00:21:37,080
restaurant you're going to behave

583
00:21:42,049 --> 00:21:39,480
differently there than you would have if

584
00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:42,059
you walked in to a bar or you walked

585
00:21:46,610 --> 00:21:44,159
into your own home your relation to that

586
00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:46,620
object is in a way exerting a downward

587
00:21:51,049 --> 00:21:48,720
control on you if you're an employee of

588
00:21:54,169 --> 00:21:51,059
Pizza Hut definitely that exerts a

589
00:21:55,970 --> 00:21:54,179
downward control on you okay so one does

590
00:21:58,490 --> 00:21:55,980
Pizza Hut control its parts to a certain

591
00:21:59,750 --> 00:21:58,500
degree it does okay and I think to a

592
00:22:01,909 --> 00:21:59,760
similar degree that the parts of an

593
00:22:03,890 --> 00:22:01,919
organism do does it survive the

594
00:22:06,110 --> 00:22:03,900
replacement of Parts yes if you've ever

595
00:22:07,669 --> 00:22:06,120
worked at Pizza Hut you will be reminded

596
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:07,679
repeatedly that we could do very well

597
00:22:10,909 --> 00:22:09,360
without you son and replace you with

598
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:10,919
another one in the Pizza Hut restaurant

599
00:22:14,270 --> 00:22:12,720
in your neighborhood could survive and

600
00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:14,280
probably will survive the complete

601
00:22:17,029 --> 00:22:15,600
replacement of all the employees and

602
00:22:18,529 --> 00:22:17,039
over time all the parts of all the

603
00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:18,539
machinery and all of that we could

604
00:22:21,529 --> 00:22:19,919
replace it Brick by Brick and it would

605
00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:21,539
still be that same Pizza Hut so the does

606
00:22:26,810 --> 00:22:24,480
Pizza Hut have an identity yes it does

607
00:22:28,370 --> 00:22:26,820
okay does it have attributes that's

608
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:28,380
Parts don't have certainly right like

609
00:22:33,529 --> 00:22:31,200
you can't pull off the Pizza Hut product

610
00:22:35,149 --> 00:22:33,539
without the Pizza Hut organization so I

611
00:22:36,529 --> 00:22:35,159
think right there you've got to say and

612
00:22:38,810 --> 00:22:36,539
Harmon does this

613
00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:38,820
is he says well if we're going to play

614
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:40,980
fair and we're going to protect the tree

615
00:22:45,529 --> 00:22:42,720
in the backyard from undermining guess

616
00:22:49,010 --> 00:22:45,539
what Pizza Hut survives too so suddenly

617
00:22:50,870 --> 00:22:49,020
Pizza Hut has equal standing as the tree

618
00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:50,880
in your backyard does and this is where

619
00:22:53,870 --> 00:22:52,500
he parts company with Aristotle but I

620
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:53,880
think he's probably right to park

621
00:22:56,930 --> 00:22:55,679
company with Aristotle here and so

622
00:22:58,730 --> 00:22:56,940
suddenly now once again we're getting

623
00:23:01,789 --> 00:22:58,740
very ontologically promiscuous like

624
00:23:05,450 --> 00:23:01,799
restaurants are objects and they're just

625
00:23:07,310 --> 00:23:05,460
as good objects as trees okay now let's

626
00:23:10,010 --> 00:23:07,320
look up a little higher here so if your

627
00:23:12,350 --> 00:23:10,020
neighborhood Pizza Hut franchise is an

628
00:23:13,669 --> 00:23:12,360
object well gosh it looks like the same

629
00:23:15,950 --> 00:23:13,679
argument is going to apply to the Pizza

630
00:23:17,649 --> 00:23:15,960
Hut Corporation right or is it aren't

631
00:23:20,210 --> 00:23:17,659
they owned by Pepsi

632
00:23:22,490 --> 00:23:20,220
everything is right okay yeah but anyway

633
00:23:24,890 --> 00:23:22,500
so it's it's there's the the Pizza Hut

634
00:23:26,149 --> 00:23:24,900
ink well it exerts a downward control

635
00:23:28,010 --> 00:23:26,159
over all the restaurants and the

636
00:23:29,390 --> 00:23:28,020
employees it has you can replace the

637
00:23:31,070 --> 00:23:29,400
parts with it it has attributes the

638
00:23:34,909 --> 00:23:31,080
parts don't have so now it looks like

639
00:23:37,970 --> 00:23:34,919
Pizza Hut ink has a standing right and

640
00:23:40,370 --> 00:23:37,980
so what are we doing we are nested in

641
00:23:42,529 --> 00:23:40,380
this hierarchy of ever higher and ever

642
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:42,539
more controlling objects now but think

643
00:23:48,049 --> 00:23:44,640
of it there Pizza Hut ink that too is

644
00:23:49,669 --> 00:23:48,059
nested in say the economy and can we

645
00:23:51,950 --> 00:23:49,679
make a case that the economy is a kind

646
00:23:54,409 --> 00:23:51,960
of object now I think we can for very

647
00:23:56,330 --> 00:23:54,419
similar reasons but notice when we go

648
00:23:57,470 --> 00:23:56,340
from this is important point so like

649
00:23:59,510 --> 00:23:57,480
right now

650
00:24:02,149 --> 00:23:59,520
Harman would say that Kelly and I are

651
00:24:04,430 --> 00:24:02,159
forming an object okay like in virtue of

652
00:24:06,649 --> 00:24:04,440
our conversation right because is there

653
00:24:08,090 --> 00:24:06,659
a hole that's greater than the parts of

654
00:24:10,370 --> 00:24:08,100
the two of us in our conversation I

655
00:24:12,110 --> 00:24:10,380
think there is right does the fact that

656
00:24:14,090 --> 00:24:12,120
we're conversing have effects on us it

657
00:24:16,010 --> 00:24:14,100
does right okay could could the

658
00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:16,020
conversation survive us yeah I could

659
00:24:19,610 --> 00:24:18,240
leave and like my wife Jen could jump in

660
00:24:21,649 --> 00:24:19,620
and take it up and we would still say it

661
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,659
was a stream of conversation so we've

662
00:24:24,590 --> 00:24:23,760
formed an object but that object is very

663
00:24:26,810 --> 00:24:24,600
much

664
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:26,820
close to us we can understand it pretty

665
00:24:31,010 --> 00:24:29,520
well but then if we you know embed that

666
00:24:32,990 --> 00:24:31,020
conversation in the Pizza Hut restaurant

667
00:24:34,490 --> 00:24:33,000
that we're sitting in it's affected by

668
00:24:36,049 --> 00:24:34,500
its presence in the restaurant and we

669
00:24:38,570 --> 00:24:36,059
don't understand the restaurant nearly

670
00:24:40,730 --> 00:24:38,580
as well but then we like move that out

671
00:24:43,970 --> 00:24:40,740
to the corporation move that out to the

672
00:24:45,830 --> 00:24:43,980
economy our ability to grasp the whole

673
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:45,840
of that object as human beings is

674
00:24:50,450 --> 00:24:48,000
shrinking as the object becomes quote

675
00:24:52,970 --> 00:24:50,460
unquote bigger right and what is a

676
00:24:55,730 --> 00:24:52,980
hyper-object well that term is coined by

677
00:24:58,010 --> 00:24:55,740
a thinker by the name of Tim Morton in

678
00:25:00,950 --> 00:24:58,020
his aptly named book hyperobjects which

679
00:25:03,409 --> 00:25:00,960
I recommend and a hyper-object is an

680
00:25:05,690 --> 00:25:03,419
object that is so immense in its scale

681
00:25:07,310 --> 00:25:05,700
that could be literal physical size but

682
00:25:10,730 --> 00:25:07,320
it could also be complexity it could be

683
00:25:12,890 --> 00:25:10,740
temporal duration what have you that it

684
00:25:15,529 --> 00:25:12,900
becomes unintelligible from the

685
00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:15,539
perspective of a lower scale object so I

686
00:25:19,549 --> 00:25:16,860
think you could maybe make a case that

687
00:25:20,750 --> 00:25:19,559
right now there is no one human

688
00:25:24,169 --> 00:25:20,760
individual that can really understand

689
00:25:26,690 --> 00:25:24,179
the global economy the global economy is

690
00:25:28,370 --> 00:25:26,700
mostly operating in the Uber umvelt

691
00:25:31,430 --> 00:25:28,380
right now and we're just kind of getting

692
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:31,440
a little piece of adhere there in our

693
00:25:36,110 --> 00:25:33,360
own um belt that we're speculating about

694
00:25:38,330 --> 00:25:36,120
okay Morton likes examples drawn from

695
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:38,340
Environmental Studies so

696
00:25:43,130 --> 00:25:40,320
the environment he makes a pretty good

697
00:25:45,590 --> 00:25:43,140
case is mostly operating in the Uber um

698
00:25:48,289 --> 00:25:45,600
belt we can like grasp some weather

699
00:25:49,909 --> 00:25:48,299
events in our umvelt but those are just

700
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:49,919
like little Fingerprints of the

701
00:25:53,149 --> 00:25:51,360
environment which is much faster than

702
00:25:54,409 --> 00:25:53,159
that and he talks about geologists and

703
00:25:55,730 --> 00:25:54,419
Environmental Studies people in

704
00:25:57,529 --> 00:25:55,740
philosophers talk about the anthropocene

705
00:25:59,330 --> 00:25:57,539
which is it's clear there's pretty good

706
00:26:01,250 --> 00:25:59,340
evidence that humans have tripped off a

707
00:26:04,130 --> 00:26:01,260
new geological age through our footprint

708
00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:04,140
on the earth and the anthropocene is so

709
00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:06,240
immense and it's this massive object

710
00:26:12,289 --> 00:26:09,360
that we have tripped off now that defies

711
00:26:13,490 --> 00:26:12,299
our understanding and Morton makes a

712
00:26:14,750 --> 00:26:13,500
case that he thinks we're not just

713
00:26:17,330 --> 00:26:14,760
surrounded by objects but we're

714
00:26:19,130 --> 00:26:17,340
surrounded by hyper objects objects that

715
00:26:21,950 --> 00:26:19,140
that are too vast for us to understand

716
00:26:23,269 --> 00:26:21,960
and many of them are are doing like he

717
00:26:25,250 --> 00:26:23,279
points out like he thinks you can make a

718
00:26:27,649 --> 00:26:25,260
case that the complete collection of

719
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:27,659
plastic in the world has taken on a kind

720
00:26:32,330 --> 00:26:30,240
of objective life of its own right is

721
00:26:33,769 --> 00:26:32,340
exerting a kind of downward influence on

722
00:26:35,390 --> 00:26:33,779
us and we haven't even begun to

723
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:35,400
understand that and so that's notion of

724
00:26:39,350 --> 00:26:37,200
a hyper object and there too I think

725
00:26:40,730 --> 00:26:39,360
once again as soon as you start to see

726
00:26:42,890 --> 00:26:40,740
the world through that orientation

727
00:26:45,049 --> 00:26:42,900
you're starting to see like okay now we

728
00:26:47,450 --> 00:26:45,059
are in an immensely Enchanted world now

729
00:26:50,149 --> 00:26:47,460
yeah absolutely something I really love

730
00:26:51,529 --> 00:26:50,159
about the Pizza Hut analogy as well is

731
00:26:52,909 --> 00:26:51,539
because I'm sure you see this as

732
00:26:55,370 --> 00:26:52,919
something I see in Ohio a lot I'm sure

733
00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:55,380
this happens in Kansas as well where you

734
00:26:57,769 --> 00:26:56,400
know Pizza Hut had these very

735
00:27:00,049 --> 00:26:57,779
distinctive buildings that they would

736
00:27:02,269 --> 00:27:00,059
have their shops in and they get turned

737
00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:02,279
into other things and so you have this

738
00:27:06,409 --> 00:27:04,140
building and now it's not a Pizza Hut

739
00:27:08,570 --> 00:27:06,419
anymore they paint the roof gray and

740
00:27:10,909 --> 00:27:08,580
it's an urgent care or it's a jewelry

741
00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:10,919
store or it's a whatever you want to

742
00:27:15,169 --> 00:27:13,260
insert there a preschool but there's

743
00:27:17,690 --> 00:27:15,179
something of the pizza hut-ness of it

744
00:27:20,269 --> 00:27:17,700
that remains because you never look at

745
00:27:22,090 --> 00:27:20,279
that building and don't see a Pizza Hut

746
00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:22,100
somehow yeah

747
00:27:26,210 --> 00:27:24,960
it's the Pizza Hut Corporation is still

748
00:27:28,490 --> 00:27:26,220
present

749
00:27:30,169 --> 00:27:28,500
it's still there don't own the building

750
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:30,179
anymore they have nothing to do with it

751
00:27:34,669 --> 00:27:32,100
it's replaced all of its parts its

752
00:27:37,370 --> 00:27:34,679
purpose has changed yeah and yet the

753
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:37,380
Pizza Hut is still somehow present and I

754
00:27:40,669 --> 00:27:39,120
think this is really relevant to

755
00:27:42,890 --> 00:27:40,679
probably where our conversation is going

756
00:27:44,930 --> 00:27:42,900
here so Graham Harmon loves the example

757
00:27:47,390 --> 00:27:44,940
of the Civil War and the Dutch East

758
00:27:50,570 --> 00:27:47,400
India Company because they're like those

759
00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:50,580
are clearly the Civil War begins as a

760
00:27:54,409 --> 00:27:52,559
human doing right someone decided to

761
00:27:56,450 --> 00:27:54,419
Shell Fort Sumner and Lincoln decided

762
00:27:58,669 --> 00:27:56,460
I'm gonna go show those guys you know

763
00:28:01,070 --> 00:27:58,679
what you do if you shove Fort Sumner but

764
00:28:03,529 --> 00:28:01,080
what happened then is that those human

765
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:03,539
acts right those like very mundane human

766
00:28:09,890 --> 00:28:06,960
acts turned into this thing the Civil

767
00:28:12,350 --> 00:28:09,900
War that had a life of its own that

768
00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:12,360
exerted an immense influence on millions

769
00:28:17,630 --> 00:28:14,820
of human lives in a sense was bigger

770
00:28:19,070 --> 00:28:17,640
than anyone could control right

771
00:28:20,769 --> 00:28:19,080
um and still to this day exerts an

772
00:28:25,010 --> 00:28:20,779
influence so it was a human endeavor

773
00:28:27,169 --> 00:28:25,020
introduced a new being into being that

774
00:28:29,570 --> 00:28:27,179
took on a kind of life that that

775
00:28:31,970 --> 00:28:29,580
actually eclipsed us right Graham Harmon

776
00:28:34,370 --> 00:28:31,980
has a book on analyzing the Dutch East

777
00:28:36,350 --> 00:28:34,380
Indy company as an object and I think

778
00:28:38,330 --> 00:28:36,360
really he means a hyper object there and

779
00:28:40,669 --> 00:28:38,340
was this it's a corporate structure but

780
00:28:43,250 --> 00:28:40,679
it took on a life of its own like moved

781
00:28:44,990 --> 00:28:43,260
world history for good or ill right did

782
00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:45,000
terrible things did great things all

783
00:28:50,210 --> 00:28:47,940
that but it at no point was any human

784
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:50,220
individual really in charge of that

785
00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:51,840
thing it was in charge of the human

786
00:28:58,490 --> 00:28:53,700
individuals involved in it okay and we

787
00:29:00,049 --> 00:28:58,500
humans have this really really odd I

788
00:29:01,669 --> 00:29:00,059
don't want to call it ability because it

789
00:29:05,529 --> 00:29:01,679
we mostly do it accidentally but we have

790
00:29:08,330 --> 00:29:05,539
this odd tendency to trip off processes

791
00:29:10,370 --> 00:29:08,340
that culminate in hyper objects that

792
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:10,380
come back then to control us

793
00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:13,200
right it's our attempts to run things

794
00:29:17,390 --> 00:29:15,840
have this backfiring tendency that we

795
00:29:20,570 --> 00:29:17,400
tend to be run by the very things that

796
00:29:23,149 --> 00:29:20,580
we create the Faustian bargain it's

797
00:29:24,409 --> 00:29:23,159
constant faustion bargain and they're I

798
00:29:25,730 --> 00:29:24,419
mean and I know it's like it's happening

799
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:25,740
to say yeah there's always unforeseen

800
00:29:28,370 --> 00:29:27,120
consequences but I think what's

801
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:28,380
interesting what I've learned from

802
00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:31,679
Harmon what I've learned from Morton and

803
00:29:34,430 --> 00:29:32,580
there's another

804
00:29:36,769 --> 00:29:34,440
um I forget the author's animal country

805
00:29:38,510 --> 00:29:36,779
in a bit uh she wrote Bennett is her

806
00:29:39,169 --> 00:29:38,520
name she wrote a book called

807
00:29:41,029 --> 00:29:39,179
um

808
00:29:43,070 --> 00:29:41,039
something matter but anyway I'll get it

809
00:29:44,210 --> 00:29:43,080
for you it's a fabulous book but anyway

810
00:29:47,090 --> 00:29:44,220
what I've learned from all three of them

811
00:29:48,769 --> 00:29:47,100
is not only do are there like unforeseen

812
00:29:51,049 --> 00:29:48,779
consequences for humans in our actions

813
00:29:53,210 --> 00:29:51,059
but they're unforeseen ontologies in

814
00:29:56,149 --> 00:29:53,220
human actions right like human actions

815
00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:56,159
have a way of bringing about new orders

816
00:30:01,190 --> 00:29:59,039
of being new categories of things that

817
00:30:03,710 --> 00:30:01,200
we then have to contend with as others

818
00:30:05,930 --> 00:30:03,720
right maybe other animals do that but it

819
00:30:09,049 --> 00:30:05,940
seems like we have a knack for it yeah

820
00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:09,059
no that is really interesting so in some

821
00:30:12,649 --> 00:30:11,039
of your recent papers and some of your

822
00:30:14,810 --> 00:30:12,659
recent articles that you've done you've

823
00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:14,820
been talking about the UFO as a hyper

824
00:30:19,730 --> 00:30:17,580
object even begonia as a hyper object so

825
00:30:21,289 --> 00:30:19,740
how can we start taking all the stuff

826
00:30:23,330 --> 00:30:21,299
that we've just talked about and start

827
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:23,340
applying it to the idea of the UFO

828
00:30:29,810 --> 00:30:26,399
phenomenon yeah okay so my

829
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:29,820
first Fourier of speculation about the

830
00:30:34,669 --> 00:30:32,159
ontology UFOs I made the case that this

831
00:30:36,889 --> 00:30:34,679
notion of the umvelt and the Uber umbel

832
00:30:39,649 --> 00:30:36,899
is I think a useful way of thinking

833
00:30:41,149 --> 00:30:39,659
about the UFO that and in a way of

834
00:30:43,610 --> 00:30:41,159
thinking of it not as extraterrestrial

835
00:30:45,470 --> 00:30:43,620
but to think of it as it is another kind

836
00:30:48,409 --> 00:30:45,480
of being maybe an organism maybe an

837
00:30:50,330 --> 00:30:48,419
animal that resides here

838
00:30:51,710 --> 00:30:50,340
on Earth not in another dimension it's

839
00:30:53,570 --> 00:30:51,720
just another kind of animal

840
00:30:55,909 --> 00:30:53,580
that we just were not a vault to deal

841
00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:55,919
with right that we we have not evolved

842
00:30:59,450 --> 00:30:57,360
to deal with it and therefore we don't

843
00:31:01,730 --> 00:30:59,460
have perceptual apparatus to really even

844
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:01,740
sense it or not enough and so that we're

845
00:31:06,010 --> 00:31:03,600
getting is a kind of we bump into it

846
00:31:08,810 --> 00:31:06,020
just over the edges of the um

847
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:08,820
Realms right and then that dick that's

848
00:31:12,230 --> 00:31:10,559
on Candy it doesn't make sense etc etc

849
00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:12,240
and I've already by doing that I've

850
00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:14,399
already gone object oriented right okay

851
00:31:19,789 --> 00:31:16,140
but now next move is to take it to hyper

852
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:19,799
objects and say well we assume are what

853
00:31:24,110 --> 00:31:22,080
I call the Goldilocks ontology right

854
00:31:26,090 --> 00:31:24,120
when we think about the UFO we assume

855
00:31:28,130 --> 00:31:26,100
that the UFO is going to be the sort of

856
00:31:30,110 --> 00:31:28,140
like the philosophical Fame the middle

857
00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:30,120
sized right good like we assume it's

858
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:32,100
going to be about the same scale of

859
00:31:36,350 --> 00:31:34,080
thing that humans are used to dealing

860
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:36,360
with okay so it's going to be maybe like

861
00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:38,399
they're airplanes maybe there are other

862
00:31:43,130 --> 00:31:40,559
individuated human-ish things are

863
00:31:45,769 --> 00:31:43,140
involved in them but that's all assuming

864
00:31:47,389 --> 00:31:45,779
the primary ontological scale is the

865
00:31:49,070 --> 00:31:47,399
scale that we're used to dealing with in

866
00:31:52,190 --> 00:31:49,080
our umfeld so I think there's a kind of

867
00:31:53,810 --> 00:31:52,200
hubris in that all right and I raise the

868
00:31:55,970 --> 00:31:53,820
notion of hyper object here to say well

869
00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:55,980
maybe the UFO isn't even multiple things

870
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:59,279
maybe it's just one thing a hyper object

871
00:32:02,690 --> 00:32:01,200
that shows up under these other

872
00:32:05,450 --> 00:32:02,700
appearances so in the same way that like

873
00:32:07,010 --> 00:32:05,460
if you look at the environment simply

874
00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:07,020
from the perspective of how it shows up

875
00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:07,980
for us

876
00:32:14,269 --> 00:32:11,039
you don't see the environment you see a

877
00:32:17,510 --> 00:32:14,279
thunderstorm or a tornado or a blizzard

878
00:32:20,510 --> 00:32:17,520
or a cold day or a warm day you see it

879
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:20,520
shows up as individuated things that we

880
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:23,279
pack down into the Goldilocks zone

881
00:32:26,930 --> 00:32:25,440
that's easy for us to deal with but in

882
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:26,940
fact none of those things are the

883
00:32:31,909 --> 00:32:30,000
environment they are manifestations of a

884
00:32:34,430 --> 00:32:31,919
single thing that is the environment and

885
00:32:36,169 --> 00:32:34,440
once you admit that R umvelt our framing

886
00:32:37,730 --> 00:32:36,179
of things is not the end-all be-all for

887
00:32:40,130 --> 00:32:37,740
objects then I think you have to be open

888
00:32:42,889 --> 00:32:40,140
to then okay then in the Uber room belt

889
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:42,899
what is the UFO is it many or is it one

890
00:32:48,350 --> 00:32:46,320
well it may be one in the sense that

891
00:32:51,470 --> 00:32:48,360
like the Pizza Hut Corporation is one

892
00:32:53,870 --> 00:32:51,480
right it's one organic system an

893
00:32:55,789 --> 00:32:53,880
organism that manifests itself out of

894
00:32:56,990 --> 00:32:55,799
these very different appearances and I

895
00:33:00,110 --> 00:32:57,000
think

896
00:33:01,430 --> 00:33:00,120
that helps us make sense of lots of

897
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:01,440
things the other point that I would make

898
00:33:08,389 --> 00:33:06,720
is given all our tendency to trip off

899
00:33:10,610 --> 00:33:08,399
hyper objects

900
00:33:12,289 --> 00:33:10,620
we could then maybe see the UFO as

901
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:12,299
something that may ultimately be our

902
00:33:17,630 --> 00:33:15,360
doing okay that through our

903
00:33:19,070 --> 00:33:17,640
technological innovations and we might

904
00:33:20,029 --> 00:33:19,080
discuss whether like nuclear weapons or

905
00:33:21,230 --> 00:33:20,039
Innovations or anything like that

906
00:33:24,769 --> 00:33:21,240
through our technological interventions

907
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:24,779
in nature in the last century have we

908
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:27,360
tripped off a process have we tripped

909
00:33:32,810 --> 00:33:30,480
off a hyper object not unlike global

910
00:33:34,009 --> 00:33:32,820
warming not unlike the Civil War right

911
00:33:35,570 --> 00:33:34,019
not unlike

912
00:33:37,009 --> 00:33:35,580
the anthropocene something like that of

913
00:33:39,409 --> 00:33:37,019
course that's a bigger scale even but

914
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:39,419
that we have tripped off objects now

915
00:33:46,970 --> 00:33:44,159
that are so vastly Superior to us right

916
00:33:48,590 --> 00:33:46,980
like unwittingly we've done this that we

917
00:33:49,730 --> 00:33:48,600
are only seeing glimpses of them and we

918
00:33:52,430 --> 00:33:49,740
really don't understand them very well

919
00:33:54,409 --> 00:33:52,440
at all and I think that makes sense of

920
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:54,419
maybe why there's an uptick in the

921
00:33:58,490 --> 00:33:57,600
sightings since the 1940s right so one

922
00:34:00,289 --> 00:33:58,500
way you could think of this is there's

923
00:34:01,970 --> 00:34:00,299
always been this other thing out there

924
00:34:03,769 --> 00:34:01,980
in the Uber um belt this other animal

925
00:34:05,810 --> 00:34:03,779
but we didn't interact very much with it

926
00:34:07,250 --> 00:34:05,820
but then say we set off a nuclear weapon

927
00:34:09,889 --> 00:34:07,260
or we start flying around in its space

928
00:34:11,270 --> 00:34:09,899
so now there's a new interaction whether

929
00:34:13,310 --> 00:34:11,280
it's new interaction you've got a new

930
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:13,320
thing and that new thing is take on a

931
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:16,320
life of its own and now it's exerting

932
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:18,720
control downwardly it's exerting you

933
00:34:21,530 --> 00:34:20,520
know all these powers downwardly and

934
00:34:24,829 --> 00:34:21,540
that's what we're encountering in the

935
00:34:26,450 --> 00:34:24,839
UFO right yeah and it automatically and

936
00:34:28,129 --> 00:34:26,460
I know you've gone here with your work

937
00:34:30,409 --> 00:34:28,139
as well it automatically makes me think

938
00:34:32,570 --> 00:34:30,419
of is control mechanism you know

939
00:34:34,849 --> 00:34:32,580
something that we may not necessarily

940
00:34:37,550 --> 00:34:34,859
know is there until we bump up against

941
00:34:39,409 --> 00:34:37,560
it yes and then that kind of triggers it

942
00:34:41,450 --> 00:34:39,419
yeah I mean and think of it like what it

943
00:34:43,070 --> 00:34:41,460
what is the Pizza Hut Corporation it's a

944
00:34:44,690 --> 00:34:43,080
control mechanism for managing the

945
00:34:47,450 --> 00:34:44,700
employees primarily right and the

946
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:47,460
customers I mean when you look at valet

947
00:34:50,570 --> 00:34:48,960
stuff and he says it's a control

948
00:34:51,770 --> 00:34:50,580
mechanism it's a control mechanism but

949
00:34:53,690 --> 00:34:51,780
you think but there's got to be an

950
00:34:56,450 --> 00:34:53,700
agency behind the mechanism that's

951
00:34:58,490 --> 00:34:56,460
running it right right I think once you

952
00:35:00,170 --> 00:34:58,500
understand the hyper object

953
00:35:03,050 --> 00:35:00,180
or you start to think of a corporation

954
00:35:05,150 --> 00:35:03,060
as an object there isn't like a stuff

955
00:35:07,370 --> 00:35:05,160
that is the corporation the corporation

956
00:35:10,609 --> 00:35:07,380
is the institutional mechanism of

957
00:35:12,349 --> 00:35:10,619
control of its parts period right so

958
00:35:14,210 --> 00:35:12,359
what is the phenomenon

959
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:14,220
behind the phenomena what is the

960
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:16,320
substance behind the control mechanism

961
00:35:22,490 --> 00:35:19,200
in ballet I think we could maybe say

962
00:35:24,410 --> 00:35:22,500
the ontology is the control mechanism it

963
00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:24,420
is a mechanism because it's

964
00:35:28,609 --> 00:35:26,640
like asking what's the substance behind

965
00:35:30,050 --> 00:35:28,619
the organic arrangement of my parts such

966
00:35:31,849 --> 00:35:30,060
that I'm an organism

967
00:35:33,530 --> 00:35:31,859
I'm the organic arrangement of my parts

968
00:35:34,910 --> 00:35:33,540
what is the substance behind the control

969
00:35:41,030 --> 00:35:34,920
mechanism

970
00:35:42,530 --> 00:35:41,040
organic Arrangement right and so I think

971
00:35:45,290 --> 00:35:42,540
the metaphor I've started to think about

972
00:35:48,430 --> 00:35:45,300
UFO as or at least I'm speculating one

973
00:35:51,950 --> 00:35:48,440
way we could think about it is we are

974
00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:51,960
constituents of the UFO same way that

975
00:35:55,370 --> 00:35:54,000
the employees and the ovens are

976
00:35:58,190 --> 00:35:55,380
constituents of the Pizza Hut

977
00:36:00,170 --> 00:35:58,200
Corporation right and the corporation

978
00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:00,180
has reality because it is a control

979
00:36:04,849 --> 00:36:02,880
mechanism of those parts right we are

980
00:36:06,290 --> 00:36:04,859
constituents of the UFO and it has a

981
00:36:08,810 --> 00:36:06,300
reality because it's a control mechanism

982
00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:08,820
on us right right and I think something

983
00:36:12,170 --> 00:36:10,800
that's first of all reading all of this

984
00:36:13,790 --> 00:36:12,180
and getting into your work and thinking

985
00:36:16,089 --> 00:36:13,800
about this has given me very weird

986
00:36:18,589 --> 00:36:16,099
dreams because

987
00:36:20,750 --> 00:36:18,599
I think the example that's been most

988
00:36:22,970 --> 00:36:20,760
useful for me has been the economy

989
00:36:24,890 --> 00:36:22,980
because it's really helpful for me to

990
00:36:26,810 --> 00:36:24,900
understand that I can go down to the

991
00:36:28,970 --> 00:36:26,820
store and buy something I can engage in

992
00:36:30,410 --> 00:36:28,980
Commerce I can hop on a plane and go to

993
00:36:33,589 --> 00:36:30,420
another country and engage in Commerce

994
00:36:36,589 --> 00:36:33,599
there I can read about the economy I can

995
00:36:38,329 --> 00:36:36,599
you know I can buy stocks I can do all

996
00:36:40,190 --> 00:36:38,339
kinds of things that are like I'm

997
00:36:42,589 --> 00:36:40,200
interacting with one little piece of the

998
00:36:45,170 --> 00:36:42,599
economy that gives me some kind of an

999
00:36:47,210 --> 00:36:45,180
idea of what it is but I don't really

1000
00:36:49,550 --> 00:36:47,220
know what it is and it moves in ways

1001
00:36:51,470 --> 00:36:49,560
that you know even the top economists of

1002
00:36:53,270 --> 00:36:51,480
the world can be utterly slummoxed by

1003
00:36:55,130 --> 00:36:53,280
something it's not like anybody has a

1004
00:36:57,410 --> 00:36:55,140
real grasp on what the economy is and

1005
00:36:58,370 --> 00:36:57,420
when I start thinking about the UFO in

1006
00:37:00,170 --> 00:36:58,380
that way

1007
00:37:03,349 --> 00:37:00,180
and each of these encounters and

1008
00:37:04,910 --> 00:37:03,359
experiences being one little window into

1009
00:37:06,890 --> 00:37:04,920
a piece of it but there's no way to know

1010
00:37:08,690 --> 00:37:06,900
what the hole looks like exactly

1011
00:37:10,010 --> 00:37:08,700
and love your example because every one

1012
00:37:11,210 --> 00:37:10,020
of those acts you mentioned like okay

1013
00:37:12,530 --> 00:37:11,220
you can spend some money in a plane

1014
00:37:13,849 --> 00:37:12,540
ticket spend some money in a book right

1015
00:37:16,609 --> 00:37:13,859
you can learn about the economy you can

1016
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:16,619
buy some stocks and there's your direct

1017
00:37:20,270 --> 00:37:19,200
perception of you as an agent going out

1018
00:37:21,770 --> 00:37:20,280
there and you're going to manipulate the

1019
00:37:23,450 --> 00:37:21,780
economy but note all of those things are

1020
00:37:24,890 --> 00:37:23,460
motivated by things in the economy

1021
00:37:27,470 --> 00:37:24,900
pushing you towards it

1022
00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:27,480
yes exactly right so you're very sense

1023
00:37:31,550 --> 00:37:29,400
of an agency in that is also a product

1024
00:37:33,589 --> 00:37:31,560
of a prior agency of the economy on you

1025
00:37:35,089 --> 00:37:33,599
right so you're in this like feedback

1026
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:35,099
loop with the economy throughout the

1027
00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:36,000
whole thing

1028
00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:37,680
right and I think people get that sense

1029
00:37:42,230 --> 00:37:40,560
of that feedback loop with the

1030
00:37:43,430 --> 00:37:42,240
phenomenon you know people say all the

1031
00:37:44,930 --> 00:37:43,440
time you start paying attention to the

1032
00:37:46,970 --> 00:37:44,940
phenomenon and it feels like the

1033
00:37:48,770 --> 00:37:46,980
phenomenon starts paying attention to

1034
00:37:50,810 --> 00:37:48,780
you even what you were saying earlier

1035
00:37:52,490 --> 00:37:50,820
about the synchronicity of you getting

1036
00:37:54,589 --> 00:37:52,500
to this place and your work with regard

1037
00:37:56,510 --> 00:37:54,599
to UFOs and then also getting into this

1038
00:37:58,609 --> 00:37:56,520
object-oriented Anthology at the same

1039
00:38:00,109 --> 00:37:58,619
time that tends to be the experience of

1040
00:38:01,490 --> 00:38:00,119
people researching this is that it's

1041
00:38:03,230 --> 00:38:01,500
almost like you reach out in the first

1042
00:38:05,329 --> 00:38:03,240
book you pick up is exactly the one you

1043
00:38:07,250 --> 00:38:05,339
were supposed to read yeah and so you

1044
00:38:09,349 --> 00:38:07,260
know going to valet's stuff like in

1045
00:38:11,569 --> 00:38:09,359
magonia's high project thing is okay so

1046
00:38:12,829 --> 00:38:11,579
valet's view is okay you've had the

1047
00:38:15,170 --> 00:38:12,839
control mechanism and it's doing

1048
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:15,180
something to us and it does it to us by

1049
00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:17,040
manipulating us cognitively it like

1050
00:38:20,930 --> 00:38:18,720
literally introduces this and it

1051
00:38:22,910 --> 00:38:20,940
retracts myths right it's this

1052
00:38:24,770 --> 00:38:22,920
mythologization and demythologization

1053
00:38:26,450 --> 00:38:24,780
process that comes back and forth back

1054
00:38:27,950 --> 00:38:26,460
and forth back and forth right and he

1055
00:38:29,930 --> 00:38:27,960
talks about how he sees it as it's like

1056
00:38:31,970 --> 00:38:29,940
a homeostasis that's being maintained

1057
00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:31,980
here and that gets me thinking so okay

1058
00:38:35,930 --> 00:38:33,780
we're moving towards an organic model

1059
00:38:38,329 --> 00:38:35,940
now right is that there's some higher

1060
00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:38,339
order object that maintains Itself by

1061
00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:40,800
keeping its parts in homeostas static

1062
00:38:46,250 --> 00:38:44,040
relations right and how does it do it it

1063
00:38:47,750 --> 00:38:46,260
does it cognitively like getting us to

1064
00:38:49,849 --> 00:38:47,760
think certain ways and thereby acts

1065
00:38:52,450 --> 00:38:49,859
certain ways so I think you can see

1066
00:38:55,550 --> 00:38:52,460
these ideas are like a suite of hormones

1067
00:38:58,250 --> 00:38:55,560
that are released to keep things in

1068
00:38:59,810 --> 00:38:58,260
their proper line and so

1069
00:39:01,430 --> 00:38:59,820
this great object that's like

1070
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:01,440
supervening on us and thereby having

1071
00:39:04,670 --> 00:39:02,880
downward control over us maybe it's an

1072
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:04,680
organism we've been a part of for our

1073
00:39:08,930 --> 00:39:06,720
entire history but what's happened now

1074
00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:08,940
is we got a line like we like set up a

1075
00:39:12,650 --> 00:39:10,800
bomb and it's caused disturbance in the

1076
00:39:15,230 --> 00:39:12,660
organism so what's it doing it's

1077
00:39:17,829 --> 00:39:15,240
feeding hormones it's feeding enzymes

1078
00:39:20,450 --> 00:39:17,839
down to re try to re-orient our

1079
00:39:22,550 --> 00:39:20,460
homeostasis right and so maybe once

1080
00:39:24,650 --> 00:39:22,560
again I can think of all this as the

1081
00:39:27,530 --> 00:39:24,660
valet I met him but things of all this

1082
00:39:29,690 --> 00:39:27,540
is like a kind of like regulation of

1083
00:39:31,550 --> 00:39:29,700
ideas and so I think of it exactly that

1084
00:39:33,470 --> 00:39:31,560
way or I think it that is a plausible

1085
00:39:35,630 --> 00:39:33,480
way to think about it right

1086
00:39:37,730 --> 00:39:35,640
yeah like a thermostat where if it gets

1087
00:39:39,410 --> 00:39:37,740
too hot the heat turns off and if it

1088
00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:39,420
gets too cold the heat turns on but the

1089
00:39:43,849 --> 00:39:41,040
point is to keep it within this

1090
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:43,859
temperature range yes exactly and what

1091
00:39:47,770 --> 00:39:45,839
is the means of Regulation it's

1092
00:39:50,630 --> 00:39:47,780
cognitive right

1093
00:39:52,069 --> 00:39:50,640
yeah and how is our Behavior regulated

1094
00:39:54,410 --> 00:39:52,079
it's through the introduction or

1095
00:39:55,910 --> 00:39:54,420
retraction of ideas and I think I mean

1096
00:39:56,750 --> 00:39:55,920
that's very clear in Jacques right and

1097
00:39:58,130 --> 00:39:56,760
what I'm trying to do is just say okay

1098
00:40:00,050 --> 00:39:58,140
here's an actual like

1099
00:40:02,089 --> 00:40:00,060
ontological metaphysical model that's

1100
00:40:03,290 --> 00:40:02,099
out there in existing philosophical

1101
00:40:04,970 --> 00:40:03,300
literature that actually really

1102
00:40:06,470 --> 00:40:04,980
dovetails nicely with what he's up to

1103
00:40:08,089 --> 00:40:06,480
here right

1104
00:40:10,190 --> 00:40:08,099
um I think this is also really

1105
00:40:11,630 --> 00:40:10,200
applicable to the sightings themselves

1106
00:40:13,790 --> 00:40:11,640
the experiences that people have

1107
00:40:15,470 --> 00:40:13,800
themselves with the UFOs after going

1108
00:40:17,270 --> 00:40:15,480
through this work and exploring it I've

1109
00:40:19,849 --> 00:40:17,280
been thinking a lot about the Tic Tac

1110
00:40:21,650 --> 00:40:19,859
from the infamous Nimitz incident so

1111
00:40:24,589 --> 00:40:21,660
you've got this object that they're

1112
00:40:26,210 --> 00:40:24,599
interacting with and it's in the sky and

1113
00:40:28,790 --> 00:40:26,220
it's flying around and it's interacting

1114
00:40:31,010 --> 00:40:28,800
with other planes and it's about the

1115
00:40:35,210 --> 00:40:31,020
sides of a big plane right but other

1116
00:40:37,010 --> 00:40:35,220
than that it has no other seams light

1117
00:40:39,170 --> 00:40:37,020
surfaces any anything else

1118
00:40:41,930 --> 00:40:39,180
distinguishing it it's just this Tic-Tac

1119
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:41,940
shape and we assume

1120
00:40:47,210 --> 00:40:45,359
in a way we attribute things to it that

1121
00:40:48,770 --> 00:40:47,220
are very much like a craft because it's

1122
00:40:50,750 --> 00:40:48,780
about the size of an aircraft that's

1123
00:40:52,970 --> 00:40:50,760
interacting with aircraft Goldilocks

1124
00:40:55,370 --> 00:40:52,980
think of it as being yes so we think

1125
00:40:58,490 --> 00:40:55,380
it's being piloted because that's what

1126
00:41:01,069 --> 00:40:58,500
we expect an object kind of like that to

1127
00:41:03,530 --> 00:41:01,079
be but the truth is we have no idea what

1128
00:41:05,569 --> 00:41:03,540
that Tic Tac is it could be an

1129
00:41:07,490 --> 00:41:05,579
intelligence itself we we truly don't

1130
00:41:10,210 --> 00:41:07,500
know or it could be like the little

1131
00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:10,220
pinky of something really big

1132
00:41:14,450 --> 00:41:12,720
it's in our range right I mean so but

1133
00:41:16,250 --> 00:41:14,460
like what is a thunderstorm it's like

1134
00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:16,260
the pinky of the environment right but

1135
00:41:19,970 --> 00:41:18,540
what do we do we break it out for

1136
00:41:21,650 --> 00:41:19,980
practical reasons because we have to

1137
00:41:25,010 --> 00:41:21,660
avoid the pinky and so we like

1138
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:25,020
ontologize or rarefy the thunderstorm as

1139
00:41:29,450 --> 00:41:27,599
a singular thing when really it's just a

1140
00:41:31,250 --> 00:41:29,460
manifestation a temporary manifestation

1141
00:41:32,569 --> 00:41:31,260
of a much larger hole that is the

1142
00:41:33,710 --> 00:41:32,579
environment or the climate or something

1143
00:41:36,109 --> 00:41:33,720
like that

1144
00:41:38,930 --> 00:41:36,119
well maybe that's what the UFO is right

1145
00:41:41,630 --> 00:41:38,940
it's it's this you know temporary

1146
00:41:44,569 --> 00:41:41,640
manifestation of a climate or I would

1147
00:41:46,430 --> 00:41:44,579
say of an overall organic structure that

1148
00:41:48,829 --> 00:41:46,440
we are embedded in in an hierarchical

1149
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:48,839
yeah the thing that really pulled me

1150
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:50,880
over about this and why I think this is

1151
00:41:55,370 --> 00:41:52,800
so important and why I'm so excited for

1152
00:41:57,890 --> 00:41:55,380
your book that's coming out is that I

1153
00:42:00,349 --> 00:41:57,900
think that this idea really collapses

1154
00:42:02,810 --> 00:42:00,359
these other ontological buckets that

1155
00:42:05,690 --> 00:42:02,820
we've created and we need that right I

1156
00:42:07,790 --> 00:42:05,700
mean ufology is stuck we don't have an

1157
00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:07,800
answer and so at a certain point to move

1158
00:42:12,829 --> 00:42:09,599
forward we're going to have to find that

1159
00:42:14,990 --> 00:42:12,839
thing that collapses our ideas now and

1160
00:42:17,030 --> 00:42:15,000
pushes us into something new and I think

1161
00:42:19,250 --> 00:42:17,040
this does that because like with this

1162
00:42:21,170 --> 00:42:19,260
podcast we started with it is it

1163
00:42:22,970 --> 00:42:21,180
extraterrestrial is it Ultra terrestrial

1164
00:42:25,010 --> 00:42:22,980
is it interdimensional is it extra-term

1165
00:42:27,410 --> 00:42:25,020
pastoral in a way what we're talking

1166
00:42:29,450 --> 00:42:27,420
about is something potentially much

1167
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:29,460
bigger than that and those buckets

1168
00:42:33,710 --> 00:42:31,200
themselves kind of portray our own

1169
00:42:37,370 --> 00:42:33,720
prejudices because it assumes something

1170
00:42:38,990 --> 00:42:37,380
that's more like us than not like us yes

1171
00:42:41,089 --> 00:42:39,000
I think this is one of the important

1172
00:42:43,390 --> 00:42:41,099
pieces in object-oriented ontologies

1173
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:43,400
it's anti-humanism

1174
00:42:47,870 --> 00:42:45,359
humanism can mean something very

1175
00:42:48,829 --> 00:42:47,880
specific in in like post-modern

1176
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:48,839
philosophy but that's not what's meant

1177
00:42:52,849 --> 00:42:50,160
here it's just it's the idea that look

1178
00:42:55,970 --> 00:42:52,859
our human measure of things may not be

1179
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:55,980
the ultimate measure okay our human

1180
00:42:59,510 --> 00:42:57,359
framing of things may not be the

1181
00:43:01,730 --> 00:42:59,520
ultimate framing that objects get the

1182
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:01,740
decisive vote in what is real with

1183
00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:03,839
objects and I think once again we have

1184
00:43:08,809 --> 00:43:06,960
to very much mistrust our Tendencies to

1185
00:43:10,670 --> 00:43:08,819
think of the UFO in the Goldilocks

1186
00:43:12,589 --> 00:43:10,680
ontology to think of it as more or less

1187
00:43:14,329 --> 00:43:12,599
on our scale more or less as operating

1188
00:43:16,190 --> 00:43:14,339
what we would do in that situation and

1189
00:43:18,410 --> 00:43:16,200
all that we're talking about something

1190
00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:18,420
from the Uber um belt here and we should

1191
00:43:22,670 --> 00:43:20,400
not think our scales at all apply to

1192
00:43:24,890 --> 00:43:22,680
that at all and I think this is one of

1193
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:24,900
the great ethical lessons to be learned

1194
00:43:28,790 --> 00:43:26,640
from the UFO phenomena is utter and

1195
00:43:30,890 --> 00:43:28,800
complete epistemic humility right that

1196
00:43:33,230 --> 00:43:30,900
it looks like our ordinary

1197
00:43:35,569 --> 00:43:33,240
categorizations of things revealed as

1198
00:43:37,309 --> 00:43:35,579
the cave that they are right and have to

1199
00:43:38,569 --> 00:43:37,319
really open ourselves up to a different

1200
00:43:39,530 --> 00:43:38,579
kind of thinking to make sense of this

1201
00:43:41,630 --> 00:43:39,540
right

1202
00:43:43,130 --> 00:43:41,640
and you you everyone look what everyone

1203
00:43:45,950 --> 00:43:43,140
do is they're going to take it and put

1204
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:45,960
it into like scientific category so

1205
00:43:49,069 --> 00:43:48,000
they're going to undermine it or they're

1206
00:43:50,990 --> 00:43:49,079
going to try to explain it in human

1207
00:43:52,910 --> 00:43:51,000
psychological categories so then they're

1208
00:43:54,589 --> 00:43:52,920
going to overmine it and I'm trying not

1209
00:43:55,490 --> 00:43:54,599
to do either of those things I'm trying

1210
00:43:58,970 --> 00:43:55,500
to

1211
00:44:00,589 --> 00:43:58,980
let the object speak in a way yeah I

1212
00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:00,599
think that's so important because what

1213
00:44:05,089 --> 00:44:02,880
I'm realizing looking at all these other

1214
00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:05,099
theories which I mean they still have

1215
00:44:09,530 --> 00:44:07,140
there's still something to them right we

1216
00:44:11,630 --> 00:44:09,540
can't completely dismiss them but all of

1217
00:44:13,790 --> 00:44:11,640
them assume whether you're talking about

1218
00:44:15,050 --> 00:44:13,800
it's coming from another dimension or

1219
00:44:16,430 --> 00:44:15,060
it's coming from another point in time

1220
00:44:18,349 --> 00:44:16,440
or it's coming from somewhere on Earth

1221
00:44:20,030 --> 00:44:18,359
or it's coming from another planet we're

1222
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:20,040
assuming that something more or less

1223
00:44:24,470 --> 00:44:22,079
like us is getting into something that's

1224
00:44:27,349 --> 00:44:24,480
more or less like a craft that we're

1225
00:44:28,970 --> 00:44:27,359
familiar with and then fly in here and

1226
00:44:31,130 --> 00:44:28,980
that reduces

1227
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:31,140
on to something very familiar but we

1228
00:44:35,809 --> 00:44:33,599
don't really have any reason to believe

1229
00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:35,819
that and if anything and a real

1230
00:44:40,309 --> 00:44:37,680
exploration of the topic reveals the

1231
00:44:44,210 --> 00:44:40,319
fact that the UFO phenomenon ultimately

1232
00:44:45,950 --> 00:44:44,220
breaks all of those models anyways so we

1233
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:45,960
have this indication that they're not

1234
00:44:50,510 --> 00:44:48,480
the right models and this is something

1235
00:44:52,250 --> 00:44:50,520
that I think I've learned in a lot of

1236
00:44:54,650 --> 00:44:52,260
ways from Jeff and his notion

1237
00:44:57,650 --> 00:44:54,660
and Whitney Schreiber that notion of

1238
00:44:59,809 --> 00:44:57,660
super space nature like this idea that

1239
00:45:01,730 --> 00:44:59,819
we've got this neat divide now between

1240
00:45:04,430 --> 00:45:01,740
the natural and the supernatural between

1241
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:04,440
the material and the immaterial right it

1242
00:45:09,410 --> 00:45:07,440
looks like what the UFO is showing us is

1243
00:45:12,109 --> 00:45:09,420
that was an artificial division in the

1244
00:45:15,230 --> 00:45:12,119
first place okay and we're going to only

1245
00:45:18,050 --> 00:45:15,240
get progress by getting over that false

1246
00:45:19,309 --> 00:45:18,060
dichotomy and seeing nature as super and

1247
00:45:22,430 --> 00:45:19,319
as you know I've pointed out some other

1248
00:45:24,290 --> 00:45:22,440
work that the Greeks did not have that

1249
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:24,300
distinction right I mean Aristotle's

1250
00:45:28,490 --> 00:45:26,400
natural theology is full of deities in

1251
00:45:30,290 --> 00:45:28,500
all the Greeks meant by in material is

1252
00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:30,300
just it doesn't change they didn't think

1253
00:45:33,890 --> 00:45:31,440
of it as

1254
00:45:36,230 --> 00:45:33,900
this other kind of like spooky thing

1255
00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:36,240
right it just meant it wasn't subject it

1256
00:45:40,730 --> 00:45:38,640
was more it was less temporally subject

1257
00:45:41,930 --> 00:45:40,740
than we are and so I think in a lot of

1258
00:45:43,609 --> 00:45:41,940
ways what we're doing here is we're

1259
00:45:46,490 --> 00:45:43,619
returning to a more original human

1260
00:45:48,109 --> 00:45:46,500
disposition to think about things right

1261
00:45:49,309 --> 00:45:48,119
and a lot of these dichotomies between

1262
00:45:50,950 --> 00:45:49,319
say the material and the material

1263
00:45:53,450 --> 00:45:50,960
between the super and nature

1264
00:45:57,109 --> 00:45:53,460
Supernatural and natural are really

1265
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:57,119
products of relatively recent modern

1266
00:46:01,849 --> 00:46:00,000
materialist assumptions right all of

1267
00:46:05,450 --> 00:46:01,859
this with the hyper object has brought

1268
00:46:07,309 --> 00:46:05,460
me again and again back to the idea of

1269
00:46:09,290 --> 00:46:07,319
AI because I think that we're having

1270
00:46:11,450 --> 00:46:09,300
this moment in time where we're really

1271
00:46:13,370 --> 00:46:11,460
seeing the creation of a hyper object

1272
00:46:16,970 --> 00:46:13,380
and the nature of It kind of helps us

1273
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:16,980
see that there's this AI Doomer uh his

1274
00:46:21,230 --> 00:46:19,680
name is Eliezer idkowski he is one of

1275
00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:21,240
these guys who's been working on AI

1276
00:46:26,809 --> 00:46:24,480
longer than just about anybody and his

1277
00:46:29,210 --> 00:46:26,819
real conviction is that we're already

1278
00:46:30,770 --> 00:46:29,220
past the point of no return with AI and

1279
00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:30,780
then it's very dangerous to us for a lot

1280
00:46:36,050 --> 00:46:33,359
of reasons but one of the ideas in his

1281
00:46:38,270 --> 00:46:36,060
work that I find most compelling and

1282
00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:38,280
most relevant to this conversation is

1283
00:46:43,970 --> 00:46:41,520
that as we're training these AIS we're

1284
00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:43,980
training them basically primarily as

1285
00:46:49,329 --> 00:46:46,740
chat Bots that can interact with us and

1286
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:49,339
we train them on a lot of human stuff

1287
00:46:54,589 --> 00:46:52,560
and we teach them how to talk to us like

1288
00:46:57,410 --> 00:46:54,599
they're a human but one of his big

1289
00:46:59,089 --> 00:46:57,420
argument comments is that this is not a

1290
00:47:01,130 --> 00:46:59,099
human this is fundamentally not a human

1291
00:47:03,170 --> 00:47:01,140
that a true artificial general

1292
00:47:04,309 --> 00:47:03,180
intelligence would be so much smarter

1293
00:47:05,390 --> 00:47:04,319
than us which we don't even know what

1294
00:47:07,069 --> 00:47:05,400
that means because we've never

1295
00:47:09,410 --> 00:47:07,079
encountered anything truly smarter than

1296
00:47:11,569 --> 00:47:09,420
us and it's much faster how would you

1297
00:47:13,309 --> 00:47:11,579
frame something smarter than you like it

1298
00:47:16,430 --> 00:47:13,319
would seem like it's Yeah by definition

1299
00:47:18,410 --> 00:47:16,440
beyond your kin exactly exactly and what

1300
00:47:20,809 --> 00:47:18,420
he's saying though is that what we've

1301
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:20,819
created is this thing that knows how to

1302
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:23,520
talk to us like it's a human but that

1303
00:47:28,430 --> 00:47:25,440
it's true intelligence and the thought

1304
00:47:30,650 --> 00:47:28,440
process behind it is not human it's

1305
00:47:33,470 --> 00:47:30,660
fundamentally not human and that we

1306
00:47:35,329 --> 00:47:33,480
can't be fooled by the fact that like

1307
00:47:36,770 --> 00:47:35,339
we've trained it to talk to us in a

1308
00:47:38,450 --> 00:47:36,780
certain way we can't think that that's

1309
00:47:40,550 --> 00:47:38,460
all that there is going on back there

1310
00:47:42,890 --> 00:47:40,560
and that we might not know we have no

1311
00:47:45,650 --> 00:47:42,900
idea what's going on behind there and

1312
00:47:49,849 --> 00:47:45,660
that brings me back to the idea of the

1313
00:47:53,450 --> 00:47:49,859
hyper object again 100 I agree 100 I

1314
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,460
agree okay there's a less known German

1315
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:55,200
phenomenon just

1316
00:47:59,450 --> 00:47:56,880
was actually a student of Heidegger's

1317
00:48:01,550 --> 00:47:59,460
but keitiger was infamously right-wing

1318
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:01,560
in Germany and his Anders his student

1319
00:48:06,589 --> 00:48:03,839
was left wing so they broke up and

1320
00:48:07,609 --> 00:48:06,599
Anders ended up in America during the

1321
00:48:08,990 --> 00:48:07,619
war and actually I think it was

1322
00:48:10,430 --> 00:48:09,000
literally working as a janitor while

1323
00:48:12,710 --> 00:48:10,440
he's writing This brilliant philosophy

1324
00:48:16,190 --> 00:48:12,720
on the side I love that anyway

1325
00:48:18,410 --> 00:48:16,200
and Anders has kind of re-entered the

1326
00:48:19,910 --> 00:48:18,420
conversation in American universities

1327
00:48:21,530 --> 00:48:19,920
mainly through the efforts of a guy

1328
00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:21,540
named Mueller who's started to translate

1329
00:48:26,809 --> 00:48:24,480
more of his stuff but anyway Anders is

1330
00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:26,819
writing in the 1950s

1331
00:48:31,190 --> 00:48:29,040
and so at that point the notion of

1332
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:31,200
artificial intelligence isn't really up

1333
00:48:35,809 --> 00:48:33,119
and running the idea of conscious

1334
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:35,819
machines isn't really up and running but

1335
00:48:41,089 --> 00:48:38,160
already about 56 Anders is writing

1336
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:41,099
essays saying we're done because we have

1337
00:48:45,290 --> 00:48:42,960
abdicated to the machine the machine

1338
00:48:49,190 --> 00:48:45,300
runs it now and Anders has this view

1339
00:48:51,109 --> 00:48:49,200
that he thinks the end came with the

1340
00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:51,119
first time we tested a nuclear weapon

1341
00:48:55,130 --> 00:48:53,520
because he thinks what you had there is

1342
00:48:57,589 --> 00:48:55,140
you had this a bunch of human

1343
00:49:00,170 --> 00:48:57,599
individuals each working on their own

1344
00:49:01,790 --> 00:49:00,180
little slice of things right but none of

1345
00:49:04,010 --> 00:49:01,800
them knowing what this was all adding up

1346
00:49:05,809 --> 00:49:04,020
to and the people who did know what it

1347
00:49:07,970 --> 00:49:05,819
was adding up to like Oppenheimer like

1348
00:49:10,790 --> 00:49:07,980
they set it off and they say behold I am

1349
00:49:14,109 --> 00:49:10,800
death their story of Worlds but then why

1350
00:49:17,569 --> 00:49:16,550
no one really had an answer you could

1351
00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:17,579
say well because we had to beat the

1352
00:49:20,569 --> 00:49:18,960
Japanese or we had to like show the

1353
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:20,579
Russians how tough we were or whatever

1354
00:49:24,650 --> 00:49:22,800
but how did we get in that situation

1355
00:49:26,210 --> 00:49:24,660
what put us in a circumstance where we

1356
00:49:28,609 --> 00:49:26,220
had supposedly no choice but to

1357
00:49:30,349 --> 00:49:28,619
incinerate cities with these weapons and

1358
00:49:34,730 --> 00:49:30,359
what Anders is saying there's because we

1359
00:49:37,910 --> 00:49:34,740
had abdicated our moral cognitive duties

1360
00:49:39,650 --> 00:49:37,920
to the technological

1361
00:49:41,150 --> 00:49:39,660
hyper-object that was already he doesn't

1362
00:49:42,950 --> 00:49:41,160
use the term but the technological hyper

1363
00:49:45,589 --> 00:49:42,960
project that was already operative then

1364
00:49:47,930 --> 00:49:45,599
do you see what I mean so it didn't take

1365
00:49:49,370 --> 00:49:47,940
AI to do this it didn't it won't take

1366
00:49:50,569 --> 00:49:49,380
conscious AI if that's even a

1367
00:49:52,990 --> 00:49:50,579
possibility to do this I think there's

1368
00:49:54,710 --> 00:49:53,000
something to this we already

1369
00:49:58,190 --> 00:49:54,720
became

1370
00:49:59,690 --> 00:49:58,200
the wards of our own Machinery by the

1371
00:50:02,270 --> 00:49:59,700
end of World War II

1372
00:50:04,010 --> 00:50:02,280
and we're just seeing it now like that

1373
00:50:05,809 --> 00:50:04,020
we've just been seeing that play out I

1374
00:50:08,210 --> 00:50:05,819
think in our last time we chatted in an

1375
00:50:10,130 --> 00:50:08,220
episode I mentioned the film Fail-Safe

1376
00:50:11,930 --> 00:50:10,140
and like by 64 of filmmakers like

1377
00:50:13,730 --> 00:50:11,940
Stanley Lamar are seeing Fail-Safe is

1378
00:50:14,809 --> 00:50:13,740
the point of that film is it looks like

1379
00:50:17,030 --> 00:50:14,819
we don't really run this anymore our

1380
00:50:18,770 --> 00:50:17,040
machines run this and we defer all our

1381
00:50:20,569 --> 00:50:18,780
decision making to the machines

1382
00:50:22,130 --> 00:50:20,579
and we act as if they're going to

1383
00:50:23,930 --> 00:50:22,140
operate by what would have been our

1384
00:50:26,750 --> 00:50:23,940
logic just faster and the point is no

1385
00:50:28,010 --> 00:50:26,760
they don't they're not human so even if

1386
00:50:29,630 --> 00:50:28,020
their country whatever they're not going

1387
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:29,640
to do what humans do or they're not

1388
00:50:32,990 --> 00:50:31,440
going to think the way humans think so

1389
00:50:35,870 --> 00:50:33,000
we have given up responsibility for

1390
00:50:39,109 --> 00:50:35,880
ourselves to a cognitive mechanism that

1391
00:50:41,210 --> 00:50:39,119
we don't understand right right it's

1392
00:50:44,150 --> 00:50:41,220
very interesting that at the moment that

1393
00:50:46,329 --> 00:50:44,160
we did that in our history is then also

1394
00:50:49,730 --> 00:50:46,339
the moment where we suddenly have these

1395
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:49,740
technological looking things appearing

1396
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:52,559
in our skies yeah exactly and so to me

1397
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:54,960
that's like the okay it's so weird but

1398
00:50:57,490 --> 00:50:56,640
I'm like that's the thing is at the

1399
00:51:00,349 --> 00:50:57,500
moment

1400
00:51:02,690 --> 00:51:00,359
we create or we give ourselves over to a

1401
00:51:04,010 --> 00:51:02,700
hyper object of our own invention at

1402
00:51:06,049 --> 00:51:04,020
that same time there's these other

1403
00:51:07,790 --> 00:51:06,059
technological manifestations at least we

1404
00:51:10,250 --> 00:51:07,800
interpret them as that showing up and

1405
00:51:12,049 --> 00:51:10,260
monkeying with us cognitively

1406
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:12,059
it seems that there's got to be some

1407
00:51:15,589 --> 00:51:14,160
synthesis of those ideas somewhere for

1408
00:51:17,510 --> 00:51:15,599
us to see how that fits together and to

1409
00:51:20,210 --> 00:51:17,520
me that's the philosophical task right

1410
00:51:22,430 --> 00:51:20,220
yeah and we sort of did it in a tacit

1411
00:51:24,230 --> 00:51:22,440
way then right because it wasn't like we

1412
00:51:25,849 --> 00:51:24,240
were trying to create something like

1413
00:51:28,190 --> 00:51:25,859
that we had a million other objectives

1414
00:51:29,750 --> 00:51:28,200
in creating a box that wasn't that but

1415
00:51:32,089 --> 00:51:29,760
what's interesting with AI is that that

1416
00:51:34,910 --> 00:51:32,099
is what we're doing it's not tacit we're

1417
00:51:37,790 --> 00:51:34,920
on purpose trying to create something

1418
00:51:39,770 --> 00:51:37,800
that will basically take over for us and

1419
00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:39,780
and doing it without any real thought

1420
00:51:43,670 --> 00:51:41,520
about what that might actually look like

1421
00:51:45,770 --> 00:51:43,680
think of it okay think of like the Elon

1422
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:45,780
Musk phenomena right so

1423
00:51:51,109 --> 00:51:48,960
Elon Musk spent a lot of his career

1424
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:51,119
developing AI but then is like the guy

1425
00:51:54,530 --> 00:51:52,800
who's really into telling us now it's

1426
00:51:56,809 --> 00:51:54,540
going to wreck us so he's no different

1427
00:51:58,609 --> 00:51:56,819
than Oppenheimer after Oppenheimer since

1428
00:51:59,750 --> 00:51:58,619
the bomb obviously behold I am death

1429
00:52:02,270 --> 00:51:59,760
destroy the worlds and you're like well

1430
00:52:03,530 --> 00:52:02,280
why did you do it Oppenheimer well same

1431
00:52:05,569 --> 00:52:03,540
thing with mosque it's like okay yeah

1432
00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:05,579
he's saying behold I am death but like

1433
00:52:09,530 --> 00:52:07,680
why did you do it and I think for him

1434
00:52:11,329 --> 00:52:09,540
it's just this inevitable thing there's

1435
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:11,339
a technological thing to be done it's

1436
00:52:15,650 --> 00:52:13,200
it's in our Promethean nature that we're

1437
00:52:18,290 --> 00:52:15,660
going to do it and it can't be stopped

1438
00:52:21,230 --> 00:52:18,300
and that's to say we have abdicated

1439
00:52:23,230 --> 00:52:21,240
responsibility for ourselves to a

1440
00:52:26,569 --> 00:52:23,240
quote-unquote higher power now right

1441
00:52:30,170 --> 00:52:26,579
yeah I saw a video the other day of this

1442
00:52:33,950 --> 00:52:30,180
robot that can turn itself into liquid

1443
00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:33,960
and go through the bars of a cage and I

1444
00:52:39,410 --> 00:52:36,480
was just like why did you make this

1445
00:52:41,329 --> 00:52:39,420
that's the worst idea of her it's a

1446
00:52:43,609 --> 00:52:41,339
terrible idea right we can't stop

1447
00:52:44,750 --> 00:52:43,619
ourselves though and I think it's

1448
00:52:46,670 --> 00:52:44,760
because

1449
00:52:48,290 --> 00:52:46,680
I think Anders is right we are not

1450
00:52:49,849 --> 00:52:48,300
running things anymore right we have

1451
00:52:53,030 --> 00:52:49,859
creative created

1452
00:52:55,069 --> 00:52:53,040
a hyper object that is in fact got a

1453
00:52:57,470 --> 00:52:55,079
life of its own it's doing its own thing

1454
00:52:59,510 --> 00:52:57,480
and we are parts of that organic whole

1455
00:53:01,549 --> 00:52:59,520
and just as the liver does not

1456
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:01,559
understand the organic whole of the

1457
00:53:05,630 --> 00:53:03,359
entire human organism we don't

1458
00:53:09,049 --> 00:53:05,640
understand the organic whole of this

1459
00:53:10,430 --> 00:53:09,059
thing that we have set into motion right

1460
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:10,440
right

1461
00:53:14,390 --> 00:53:13,200
and it makes me think of Nietzsche I

1462
00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:14,400
know that you've gone that direction

1463
00:53:19,609 --> 00:53:17,040
sort of with the last man we're kind of

1464
00:53:21,470 --> 00:53:19,619
dancing merrily towards this Utopia

1465
00:53:24,290 --> 00:53:21,480
where AI is going to handle everything

1466
00:53:26,329 --> 00:53:24,300
for us but the reality of what it's

1467
00:53:28,970 --> 00:53:26,339
doing to humans and has the potential to

1468
00:53:30,290 --> 00:53:28,980
do to humans is really profound so how

1469
00:53:32,450 --> 00:53:30,300
do you do you want to talk through

1470
00:53:33,770 --> 00:53:32,460
Mitch's view on all this sure okay

1471
00:53:35,329 --> 00:53:33,780
there's a lot of direction to go with

1472
00:53:37,370 --> 00:53:35,339
let me go with the most direct and we

1473
00:53:39,049 --> 00:53:37,380
can we can complicate each if you want

1474
00:53:43,730 --> 00:53:39,059
Nietzsche like invites complication

1475
00:53:46,190 --> 00:53:43,740
right but yeah there are two passages

1476
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:46,200
in Nature's will of power I'm sorry I

1477
00:53:51,170 --> 00:53:47,520
don't have them in front of me okay okay

1478
00:53:54,710 --> 00:53:51,180
but uh one is 866 right

1479
00:53:58,370 --> 00:53:54,720
in will the power where Nietzsche says

1480
00:54:01,130 --> 00:53:58,380
the over man will only come once

1481
00:54:03,650 --> 00:54:01,140
Humanity has been incorporated into he

1482
00:54:04,490 --> 00:54:03,660
calls like a worldwide economy of the

1483
00:54:08,630 --> 00:54:04,500
machine

1484
00:54:10,910 --> 00:54:08,640
and this will require of humanity that

1485
00:54:14,089 --> 00:54:10,920
the passionate emotions have to be like

1486
00:54:17,930 --> 00:54:14,099
habituated out of us so that we can just

1487
00:54:19,430 --> 00:54:17,940
participate as cogs in this machine okay

1488
00:54:21,170 --> 00:54:19,440
so like right there you can see for

1489
00:54:22,730 --> 00:54:21,180
Nietzsche and that he has many versions

1490
00:54:25,010 --> 00:54:22,740
of the Overman but that version of the

1491
00:54:27,530 --> 00:54:25,020
over man is a technological hyper-object

1492
00:54:29,390 --> 00:54:27,540
right it is it is this greater thing

1493
00:54:31,910 --> 00:54:29,400
than ourselves like what's Overman

1494
00:54:34,130 --> 00:54:31,920
uberman Superman right something Beyond

1495
00:54:35,510 --> 00:54:34,140
us that we're gonna create the next

1496
00:54:37,790 --> 00:54:35,520
evolutionary stage so we're going to

1497
00:54:39,890 --> 00:54:37,800
give rise because Furniture evolution is

1498
00:54:42,950 --> 00:54:39,900
Progressive it's always giving rise to a

1499
00:54:44,329 --> 00:54:42,960
more powerful better beat okay so what

1500
00:54:46,430 --> 00:54:44,339
are we going to bequeath to the world

1501
00:54:48,530 --> 00:54:46,440
what's going to be our answer to us what

1502
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:48,540
will replace us that's greater it will

1503
00:54:52,130 --> 00:54:50,000
be in niche's view

1504
00:54:54,710 --> 00:54:52,140
a global

1505
00:54:57,470 --> 00:54:54,720
hyper object right that operates as

1506
00:55:01,010 --> 00:54:57,480
technology of which humanity is the

1507
00:55:02,990 --> 00:55:01,020
organic parts so Nietzsche saw it in the

1508
00:55:04,490 --> 00:55:03,000
late 19th century he saw the play here

1509
00:55:06,589 --> 00:55:04,500
like this is where this is going to go

1510
00:55:09,890 --> 00:55:06,599
and so then what are all of us like

1511
00:55:12,650 --> 00:55:09,900
we're last men right are

1512
00:55:14,510 --> 00:55:12,660
people being prepared for the sheer

1513
00:55:19,130 --> 00:55:14,520
mindless boredom

1514
00:55:21,530 --> 00:55:19,140
of participation in a mechanism right

1515
00:55:23,089 --> 00:55:21,540
right and I think it's very explicit in

1516
00:55:25,549 --> 00:55:23,099
those passages in the will of power in

1517
00:55:26,690 --> 00:55:25,559
nature that this is the next stage of

1518
00:55:27,950 --> 00:55:26,700
human evolution and if you start

1519
00:55:30,770 --> 00:55:27,960
listening to like some of the

1520
00:55:32,870 --> 00:55:30,780
transhumanist types and people talk they

1521
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:32,880
seem to be aware of this and dig it

1522
00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:34,559
right so we're going to replace

1523
00:55:38,150 --> 00:55:35,760
ourselves with something better

1524
00:55:41,030 --> 00:55:38,160
something greater something trans human

1525
00:55:43,130 --> 00:55:41,040
Beyond human right but then what comes

1526
00:55:45,410 --> 00:55:43,140
of the remaining humans well we will be

1527
00:55:47,270 --> 00:55:45,420
you know molecules

1528
00:55:49,190 --> 00:55:47,280
in that organic hole that is the

1529
00:55:51,770 --> 00:55:49,200
Ubermensch

1530
00:55:53,809 --> 00:55:51,780
and in some ways we almost become

1531
00:55:56,030 --> 00:55:53,819
irony and the sadness in it is that we

1532
00:55:58,370 --> 00:55:56,040
almost become less than and human in the

1533
00:56:01,490 --> 00:55:58,380
process like the way that he describes

1534
00:56:05,210 --> 00:56:01,500
the last man he talks about the person

1535
00:56:07,309 --> 00:56:05,220
who is all about comfort and luxury and

1536
00:56:09,650 --> 00:56:07,319
not about growing or expanding or

1537
00:56:12,650 --> 00:56:09,660
challenging themselves in any way it

1538
00:56:14,210 --> 00:56:12,660
makes me think of Idiocracy you know the

1539
00:56:16,670 --> 00:56:14,220
guy who's sitting in the toilet chair

1540
00:56:19,010 --> 00:56:16,680
with just screams around him I mean in

1541
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:19,020
some ways that is kind of you know

1542
00:56:23,230 --> 00:56:21,839
Nature's last last man and we're almost

1543
00:56:26,210 --> 00:56:23,240
there

1544
00:56:28,849 --> 00:56:26,220
yeah so you have that that okay and so

1545
00:56:30,349 --> 00:56:28,859
the Techno version of The Uber Mensch

1546
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:30,359
that I mentioned but there's this other

1547
00:56:34,490 --> 00:56:32,400
notion of the Ubermensch that you have

1548
00:56:36,410 --> 00:56:34,500
very prominently in Thus Spoke

1549
00:56:37,609 --> 00:56:36,420
zerathustra which is a published writing

1550
00:56:38,990 --> 00:56:37,619
so I think we have to privilege that

1551
00:56:41,329 --> 00:56:39,000
over will the power of in terms of

1552
00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:41,339
interpreting Nietzsche right I think in

1553
00:56:44,569 --> 00:56:43,200
terms of ideas that are in the hive mind

1554
00:56:45,890 --> 00:56:44,579
I think the latter one's just as good

1555
00:56:47,329 --> 00:56:45,900
but in terms of Nietzsche you have to

1556
00:56:49,370 --> 00:56:47,339
privilege to published stuff and in

1557
00:56:51,349 --> 00:56:49,380
zerathustra Nietzsche it's very

1558
00:56:52,309 --> 00:56:51,359
fascinating Nietzsche has zero through

1559
00:56:56,329 --> 00:56:52,319
scrub

1560
00:56:59,569 --> 00:56:56,339
claim that humanity is a rope stretched

1561
00:57:02,270 --> 00:56:59,579
between the mirror ape and the over man

1562
00:57:04,190 --> 00:57:02,280
and this idea there is humans are the

1563
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:04,200
animal that has never been comfortable

1564
00:57:08,089 --> 00:57:05,760
merely being an animal

1565
00:57:09,890 --> 00:57:08,099
so we've always posited a goal for

1566
00:57:12,290 --> 00:57:09,900
ourselves that's more than being an

1567
00:57:15,109 --> 00:57:12,300
animal and maybe that goal at one point

1568
00:57:16,430 --> 00:57:15,119
was the platonic philosopher right it

1569
00:57:19,370 --> 00:57:16,440
was going to be more than just merely

1570
00:57:22,430 --> 00:57:19,380
fleshy or at one point it was Jesus

1571
00:57:24,650 --> 00:57:22,440
Christ at one point it was the like

1572
00:57:26,990 --> 00:57:24,660
perfect Marxist citizen right and these

1573
00:57:28,730 --> 00:57:27,000
are all things from each of that give us

1574
00:57:30,589 --> 00:57:28,740
something to strive for that isn't just

1575
00:57:32,569 --> 00:57:30,599
a mere ape okay

1576
00:57:34,069 --> 00:57:32,579
but now he's worried with the death of

1577
00:57:35,990 --> 00:57:34,079
God which is to say the death of all

1578
00:57:37,730 --> 00:57:36,000
ideals for Nietzsche we don't have

1579
00:57:40,190 --> 00:57:37,740
anything to strive for now so what are

1580
00:57:43,130 --> 00:57:40,200
we going to do we're going to snap back

1581
00:57:44,930 --> 00:57:43,140
to Mere ape like existence right

1582
00:57:45,950 --> 00:57:44,940
benicia's worried he's like because you

1583
00:57:47,150 --> 00:57:45,960
like people hear that and they think

1584
00:57:48,349 --> 00:57:47,160
what he's saying oh yeah we're going to

1585
00:57:50,030 --> 00:57:48,359
go back and we're all going to be Conan

1586
00:57:51,710 --> 00:57:50,040
the Barbarian or something like that and

1587
00:57:53,630 --> 00:57:51,720
he's just like no that's been bred out

1588
00:57:56,450 --> 00:57:53,640
of us we're just going to be very boring

1589
00:57:59,390 --> 00:57:56,460
like absolutely boring right they're

1590
00:58:02,290 --> 00:57:59,400
gonna be lazy creature Comfort satisfied

1591
00:58:04,309 --> 00:58:02,300
you know dying of diabetes

1592
00:58:06,109 --> 00:58:04,319
this is what he you know and you're

1593
00:58:07,970 --> 00:58:06,119
right it's sort of okay look at the

1594
00:58:10,190 --> 00:58:07,980
Contemporary West and I think in that

1595
00:58:11,510 --> 00:58:10,200
way he's very prescient too like once we

1596
00:58:12,589 --> 00:58:11,520
lose all ideals what are we going to

1597
00:58:14,210 --> 00:58:12,599
look like we're not going to be

1598
00:58:15,770 --> 00:58:14,220
dangerous we're going to be boring right

1599
00:58:17,089 --> 00:58:15,780
because he'll say we've never seen a

1600
00:58:19,010 --> 00:58:17,099
star so we've never had anything

1601
00:58:20,750 --> 00:58:19,020
described for but now you could connect

1602
00:58:22,010 --> 00:58:20,760
that with the technological notion of

1603
00:58:23,930 --> 00:58:22,020
the Uber bench because now you've got a

1604
00:58:26,750 --> 00:58:23,940
bunch of people that are just ripe for

1605
00:58:28,309 --> 00:58:26,760
the picking to be incorporated into a

1606
00:58:30,710 --> 00:58:28,319
machine existence

1607
00:58:33,290 --> 00:58:30,720
that can like then be the hyper object

1608
00:58:34,609 --> 00:58:33,300
that's going to be the next thing does

1609
00:58:37,789 --> 00:58:34,619
that make sense

1610
00:58:40,250 --> 00:58:37,799
yeah like by becoming last men

1611
00:58:42,770 --> 00:58:40,260
we will quietly participate in our being

1612
00:58:45,829 --> 00:58:42,780
overcome by this hyper-object and what's

1613
00:58:48,170 --> 00:58:45,839
terrifying about that yeah is that the

1614
00:58:49,789 --> 00:58:48,180
very nature of the hyper object is that

1615
00:58:52,730 --> 00:58:49,799
I don't think that we can know if this

1616
00:58:54,530 --> 00:58:52,740
is ultimately a good thing or not right

1617
00:58:56,809 --> 00:58:54,540
right so the individual it's almost

1618
00:58:59,150 --> 00:58:56,819
certainly not a good thing right but to

1619
00:59:01,309 --> 00:58:59,160
humanity of the whole to the Earth as a

1620
00:59:04,010 --> 00:59:01,319
whole to the Galaxy and the universe as

1621
00:59:07,430 --> 00:59:04,020
a whole is this the right is this the

1622
00:59:09,770 --> 00:59:07,440
natural right progression is this the

1623
00:59:11,690 --> 00:59:09,780
path of evolution or are we being

1624
00:59:14,210 --> 00:59:11,700
colonized and destroyed by something

1625
00:59:17,930 --> 00:59:14,220
that we don't understand and in some

1626
00:59:19,849 --> 00:59:17,940
ways it's both right yeah exactly and it

1627
00:59:21,650 --> 00:59:19,859
could be like as we overcome our

1628
00:59:24,370 --> 00:59:21,660
humanistic pretensions we realize hey

1629
00:59:28,490 --> 00:59:24,380
maybe R being overcome is good right

1630
00:59:30,650 --> 00:59:28,500
uh I I cannot bring myself to believe

1631
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:30,660
that right like I find myself like I

1632
00:59:35,930 --> 00:59:34,319
want to maintain my ability not to

1633
00:59:37,490 --> 00:59:35,940
become a last man and be just merely

1634
00:59:41,089 --> 00:59:37,500
incorporated into this hyper object

1635
00:59:42,950 --> 00:59:41,099
right but I think you were raising the

1636
00:59:45,410 --> 00:59:42,960
appropriately dark philosophical

1637
00:59:46,789 --> 00:59:45,420
question there which is I think the dark

1638
00:59:49,069 --> 00:59:46,799
philosophical question that we should be

1639
00:59:50,510 --> 00:59:49,079
addressing for Our Generation yeah yeah

1640
00:59:51,950 --> 00:59:50,520
because I mean I agree with you it's

1641
00:59:53,809 --> 00:59:51,960
really hard for me to accept that this

1642
00:59:55,670 --> 00:59:53,819
is the right path because I mean even

1643
00:59:57,650 --> 00:59:55,680
just look at our society we're just

1644
01:00:00,289 --> 00:59:57,660
getting progressively

1645
01:00:01,849 --> 01:00:00,299
more depressed the United States is

1646
01:00:03,829 --> 01:00:01,859
probably the country that most

1647
01:00:05,809 --> 01:00:03,839
exemplifies exactly what we're talking

1648
01:00:07,069 --> 01:00:05,819
about and we're also the only country

1649
01:00:09,410 --> 01:00:07,079
where you have a mass shooting about

1650
01:00:11,630 --> 01:00:09,420
every five seconds exactly exactly and

1651
01:00:13,490 --> 01:00:11,640
not dealing well with this it's not what

1652
01:00:15,289 --> 01:00:13,500
we're supposed to be I even look at my

1653
01:00:17,450 --> 01:00:15,299
own life I never really talked about

1654
01:00:21,470 --> 01:00:17,460
this on this podcast but back in like

1655
01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:21,480
2016 I was extremely depressed and I

1656
01:00:25,549 --> 01:00:23,520
basically ended up selling all of my

1657
01:00:27,170 --> 01:00:25,559
worldly possessions like literally

1658
01:00:28,309 --> 01:00:27,180
everything fit into a backpack and I

1659
01:00:29,750 --> 01:00:28,319
started traveling I did a different

1660
01:00:32,930 --> 01:00:29,760
country every month and it literally

1661
01:00:34,510 --> 01:00:32,940
saved my life because I needed to get

1662
01:00:38,690 --> 01:00:34,520
uncomfortable

1663
01:00:40,609 --> 01:00:38,700
to to progress think about the hero's

1664
01:00:41,930 --> 01:00:40,619
journey and an initiatory experiences

1665
01:00:44,410 --> 01:00:41,940
what we've talked about in terms of

1666
01:00:48,289 --> 01:00:44,420
waking up in the cave like that

1667
01:00:50,329 --> 01:00:48,299
discomfort is such a critical part of

1668
01:00:53,089 --> 01:00:50,339
what it means to be human that

1669
01:00:56,030 --> 01:00:53,099
experiencing that facing it overcoming

1670
01:00:59,270 --> 01:00:56,040
it not evolutionary process that process

1671
01:01:02,210 --> 01:00:59,280
of continually striving to be better and

1672
01:01:04,549 --> 01:01:02,220
to be more is the only real place for

1673
01:01:05,510 --> 01:01:04,559
happiness for a human can be found I

1674
01:01:07,789 --> 01:01:05,520
think even though it is very

1675
01:01:09,170 --> 01:01:07,799
uncomfortable and we're slowly getting

1676
01:01:11,210 --> 01:01:09,180
further and further away from that and

1677
01:01:14,270 --> 01:01:11,220
people are depressed as hell and they

1678
01:01:16,730 --> 01:01:14,280
think of like for nature what humanity

1679
01:01:19,549 --> 01:01:16,740
is is the thing that will accept that

1680
01:01:21,410 --> 01:01:19,559
suffering for the sake of a goal right

1681
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:21,420
we are the thing that stretched between

1682
01:01:27,470 --> 01:01:24,720
the ape and the Ubermensch so we are the

1683
01:01:29,990 --> 01:01:27,480
process of being stretched and pulled

1684
01:01:32,150 --> 01:01:30,000
and tortured by our wanting to be

1685
01:01:34,309 --> 01:01:32,160
something more and this is why he calls

1686
01:01:36,230 --> 01:01:34,319
like what he sees is like our generation

1687
01:01:38,690 --> 01:01:36,240
like in the big sense of generation as

1688
01:01:40,250 --> 01:01:38,700
the last man this is the last gasp of

1689
01:01:42,289 --> 01:01:40,260
humanity and then we're going to fall

1690
01:01:44,150 --> 01:01:42,299
back to being an unconscious ape again

1691
01:01:46,730 --> 01:01:44,160
so the only thing that will save you

1692
01:01:49,130 --> 01:01:46,740
from last mannery is a commitment to a

1693
01:01:51,530 --> 01:01:49,140
kind of existential suffering for the

1694
01:01:54,230 --> 01:01:51,540
sake of not wanting to go quietly into

1695
01:01:55,789 --> 01:01:54,240
that night right to find something you

1696
01:01:58,190 --> 01:01:55,799
can strive for like in your case it's a

1697
01:02:00,710 --> 01:01:58,200
philosophical Quest right and it costs

1698
01:02:02,210 --> 01:02:00,720
you dearly to do it right and therein

1699
01:02:03,710 --> 01:02:02,220
you're maintaining your Humanity I think

1700
01:02:05,569 --> 01:02:03,720
the dark thing for Nietzsche in the

1701
01:02:06,770 --> 01:02:05,579
world of power is like well hey let's

1702
01:02:08,569 --> 01:02:06,780
face it most people are going to pull

1703
01:02:10,250 --> 01:02:08,579
that off so what we can do is the higher

1704
01:02:12,049 --> 01:02:10,260
types can work them up into a machine

1705
01:02:13,430 --> 01:02:12,059
that will be greater than us but I think

1706
01:02:15,770 --> 01:02:13,440
Nietzsche would say you as an individual

1707
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:15,780
are perfectly right to resist that at

1708
01:02:20,510 --> 01:02:18,480
every Stride Right to fight for your

1709
01:02:22,849 --> 01:02:20,520
Humanity yeah I couldn't agree more too

1710
01:02:25,609 --> 01:02:22,859
yeah well I think that there's this I

1711
01:02:27,910 --> 01:02:25,619
find it very naive in a way there's this

1712
01:02:30,650 --> 01:02:27,920
kind of belief among a certain kind of

1713
01:02:33,289 --> 01:02:30,660
tech billionaire and people who follow

1714
01:02:34,970 --> 01:02:33,299
them where they have this sense that

1715
01:02:37,730 --> 01:02:34,980
there's no reason why any anyone alive

1716
01:02:38,930 --> 01:02:37,740
today needs to die but if you're below a

1717
01:02:40,010 --> 01:02:38,940
certain age that at a certain point

1718
01:02:43,430 --> 01:02:40,020
we're going to get this figured out

1719
01:02:45,770 --> 01:02:43,440
either Nanobots are going to save us or

1720
01:02:48,829 --> 01:02:45,780
you're going to be able to upload your

1721
01:02:50,270 --> 01:02:48,839
mind into a robot body and live forever

1722
01:02:52,069 --> 01:02:50,280
you know all these different ideas that

1723
01:02:54,910 --> 01:02:52,079
we have of what that would look like and

1724
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:54,920
people are so obsessed with kind of

1725
01:03:00,049 --> 01:02:57,839
maintaining themselves and never dying

1726
01:03:02,210 --> 01:03:00,059
but I don't think they recognize that in

1727
01:03:05,030 --> 01:03:02,220
doing that the thing that they are still

1728
01:03:08,569 --> 01:03:05,040
dies like the very fundamental their

1729
01:03:10,910 --> 01:03:08,579
Humanity you're no longer a human at

1730
01:03:13,490 --> 01:03:10,920
that point you're something else is

1731
01:03:15,170 --> 01:03:13,500
Heidegger puts it this is you know dazon

1732
01:03:17,630 --> 01:03:15,180
is the bee for whom being is an issue

1733
01:03:18,470 --> 01:03:17,640
right so to be a human is to be

1734
01:03:20,930 --> 01:03:18,480
something

1735
01:03:23,030 --> 01:03:20,940
that puts being in a question and the

1736
01:03:25,190 --> 01:03:23,040
thing that puts being most fundamentally

1737
01:03:27,589 --> 01:03:25,200
into question for us is the fact of our

1738
01:03:28,970 --> 01:03:27,599
mortality right that we are finite to

1739
01:03:30,650 --> 01:03:28,980
say that we're going to make ourselves

1740
01:03:33,170 --> 01:03:30,660
naturally immortal

1741
01:03:34,250 --> 01:03:33,180
is to say whatever that results will not

1742
01:03:35,870 --> 01:03:34,260
be us

1743
01:03:38,450 --> 01:03:35,880
and I think we have to ask ourselves is

1744
01:03:40,609 --> 01:03:38,460
there a value just to being us or not

1745
01:03:43,130 --> 01:03:40,619
because I think when you do have people

1746
01:03:44,510 --> 01:03:43,140
proposing a kind of natural immortality

1747
01:03:46,190 --> 01:03:44,520
well one there's a question would you

1748
01:03:48,829 --> 01:03:46,200
really want that I think I'm gonna get

1749
01:03:52,010 --> 01:03:48,839
pretty damn bored of Jim Madden by about

1750
01:03:54,710 --> 01:03:52,020
year 80 right okay you don't even I

1751
01:03:56,809 --> 01:03:54,720
think right exactly right to live

1752
01:03:59,210 --> 01:03:56,819
forever and there and there is a kind of

1753
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:59,220
generational selfishness for this is

1754
01:04:03,230 --> 01:04:00,240
like

1755
01:04:05,690 --> 01:04:03,240
I need to die to get out of my other way

1756
01:04:08,030 --> 01:04:05,700
for my kids like literally resource wise

1757
01:04:10,010 --> 01:04:08,040
but I'll admit like with the death of my

1758
01:04:12,170 --> 01:04:10,020
own father I'm not glad my dad's dead

1759
01:04:14,150 --> 01:04:12,180
but do you know what it did have this

1760
01:04:16,250 --> 01:04:14,160
like oh wait man I'm the point of the

1761
01:04:17,870 --> 01:04:16,260
spear now right but I mean and someone

1762
01:04:19,670 --> 01:04:17,880
with my mom's passing too I was like

1763
01:04:23,690 --> 01:04:19,680
well no wait this generation now is mine

1764
01:04:25,309 --> 01:04:23,700
right it's up to me as to where and my

1765
01:04:26,990 --> 01:04:25,319
sister like where our family treated my

1766
01:04:28,010 --> 01:04:27,000
wife where our family tree goes did you

1767
01:04:29,750 --> 01:04:28,020
see that it was like the sense of

1768
01:04:31,730 --> 01:04:29,760
inheritance but that only happened

1769
01:04:34,069 --> 01:04:31,740
because they went on and at some point

1770
01:04:35,750 --> 01:04:34,079
I'm gonna have to become a memory to my

1771
01:04:38,329 --> 01:04:35,760
children so they can take up the torch

1772
01:04:39,589 --> 01:04:38,339
right and that's this really fundamental

1773
01:04:41,809 --> 01:04:39,599
part of Human Experience is this sort of

1774
01:04:44,329 --> 01:04:41,819
like I have to say get out of the way

1775
01:04:45,950 --> 01:04:44,339
for the sake of my own offspring but

1776
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:45,960
whereas like pretensions to like natural

1777
01:04:49,490 --> 01:04:47,760
immortality is to say I should never

1778
01:04:50,990 --> 01:04:49,500
have to get out of the way I should

1779
01:04:52,609 --> 01:04:51,000
never have to give this up for someone

1780
01:04:54,049 --> 01:04:52,619
else to inherit I know I'm making the

1781
01:04:56,210 --> 01:04:54,059
heavy moral argument there they're

1782
01:04:58,910 --> 01:04:56,220
difficult to defend but

1783
01:05:01,130 --> 01:04:58,920
I think this is clear you are changing

1784
01:05:03,349 --> 01:05:01,140
the game of what it means to be a human

1785
01:05:05,750 --> 01:05:03,359
by doing this because for our entire

1786
01:05:08,510 --> 01:05:05,760
history to be a human was to be finite

1787
01:05:10,549 --> 01:05:08,520
to have the primary orientation of your

1788
01:05:13,549 --> 01:05:10,559
life is the sake of the Next Generation

1789
01:05:15,170 --> 01:05:13,559
not your own but if I am going to be

1790
01:05:17,150 --> 01:05:15,180
here perpetually then my orientation is

1791
01:05:19,789 --> 01:05:17,160
not towards the Next Generation it's

1792
01:05:21,170 --> 01:05:19,799
towards me okay right and we can talk

1793
01:05:23,030 --> 01:05:21,180
about the moral critique of that I'm

1794
01:05:24,890 --> 01:05:23,040
happy to okay but even leave it aside

1795
01:05:26,750 --> 01:05:24,900
you have to admit we are changing the

1796
01:05:28,609 --> 01:05:26,760
human game and we have no idea what the

1797
01:05:30,230 --> 01:05:28,619
consequences of that will be and there's

1798
01:05:33,109 --> 01:05:30,240
this question like who said we get to

1799
01:05:34,309 --> 01:05:33,119
decide human nature right right it comes

1800
01:05:36,410 --> 01:05:34,319
back to these things that are just

1801
01:05:37,970 --> 01:05:36,420
fundamental to being a human and I'm

1802
01:05:39,109 --> 01:05:37,980
sure people would argue it it's hard for

1803
01:05:42,770 --> 01:05:39,119
me too because I believe it's so

1804
01:05:45,890 --> 01:05:42,780
fundamentally but you know the coming of

1805
01:05:49,670 --> 01:05:45,900
age is there's a reason why that is such

1806
01:05:52,789 --> 01:05:49,680
a central theme in our rituals and our

1807
01:05:56,150 --> 01:05:52,799
religions and our art because in a way

1808
01:05:59,150 --> 01:05:56,160
that like coming of age process is one

1809
01:06:02,089 --> 01:05:59,160
of the most fundamental units of what it

1810
01:06:04,010 --> 01:06:02,099
means to be a human and I remember you

1811
01:06:06,109 --> 01:06:04,020
know my dad passed away when I was 20

1812
01:06:08,329 --> 01:06:06,119
and I had such a hard time accepting

1813
01:06:10,549 --> 01:06:08,339
that yeah but he knew he was dying and

1814
01:06:13,250 --> 01:06:10,559
he said to me you know whatever you are

1815
01:06:15,589 --> 01:06:13,260
meant to be it requires me not to be

1816
01:06:19,190 --> 01:06:15,599
here yeah

1817
01:06:22,150 --> 01:06:19,200
as a wise man who spoke those words yeah

1818
01:06:25,190 --> 01:06:22,160
yeah he was a pretty smart guy yeah

1819
01:06:26,630 --> 01:06:25,200
because I believe it so yeah yeah but

1820
01:06:27,710 --> 01:06:26,640
that's just the thing it's like we have

1821
01:06:28,789 --> 01:06:27,720
to get over this notion that just

1822
01:06:30,829 --> 01:06:28,799
because we believe something we can't

1823
01:06:31,789 --> 01:06:30,839
stand by it you know what I mean we're

1824
01:06:34,430 --> 01:06:31,799
great

1825
01:06:35,990 --> 01:06:34,440
um yeah I wrote an essay last summer

1826
01:06:38,270 --> 01:06:36,000
on the occasion of my mom's death

1827
01:06:39,890 --> 01:06:38,280
because it happened right simultaneously

1828
01:06:41,990 --> 01:06:39,900
as two of my children were moving to

1829
01:06:44,150 --> 01:06:42,000
Europe right so it's this very

1830
01:06:46,549 --> 01:06:44,160
interesting moment I found myself in the

1831
01:06:48,589 --> 01:06:46,559
second of my parents died right at the

1832
01:06:51,410 --> 01:06:48,599
same moment that it would come to three

1833
01:06:53,990 --> 01:06:51,420
of my six children live overseas and I

1834
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:54,000
realized like as my parents were now

1835
01:06:59,450 --> 01:06:57,599
memories to me entirely I am becoming

1836
01:07:02,329 --> 01:06:59,460
more and more a memory to my grown

1837
01:07:04,130 --> 01:07:02,339
children right and I was overwhelmed

1838
01:07:06,049 --> 01:07:04,140
with this sense like look turns out Jim

1839
01:07:08,270 --> 01:07:06,059
you were not the point of this thing

1840
01:07:10,069 --> 01:07:08,280
you were not the point of this right and

1841
01:07:11,630 --> 01:07:10,079
I didn't find that distressing I found

1842
01:07:13,789 --> 01:07:11,640
that kind of oh yeah that's right I'm

1843
01:07:15,470 --> 01:07:13,799
not the point of this it's about me

1844
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:15,480
taking this thing up from my parents and

1845
01:07:19,549 --> 01:07:17,520
moving it along for my kids with my wife

1846
01:07:21,890 --> 01:07:19,559
right but we're not the point we are

1847
01:07:23,870 --> 01:07:21,900
always in between like the present isn't

1848
01:07:26,270 --> 01:07:23,880
the point right it's the mediation

1849
01:07:28,370 --> 01:07:26,280
between the past and the future right

1850
01:07:29,809 --> 01:07:28,380
and so if you think of us as the present

1851
01:07:31,490 --> 01:07:29,819
then we have to remember we are the

1852
01:07:32,809 --> 01:07:31,500
mediation between what we're given and

1853
01:07:35,210 --> 01:07:32,819
what we're pushing forward but I think

1854
01:07:37,789 --> 01:07:35,220
if you say hey I'm Immortal then you're

1855
01:07:40,130 --> 01:07:37,799
there's no sense of gift now there's

1856
01:07:42,170 --> 01:07:40,140
nothing given to you right and there's

1857
01:07:43,970 --> 01:07:42,180
no responsibility to push it forward so

1858
01:07:47,210 --> 01:07:43,980
I don't think I would choose immortality

1859
01:07:48,890 --> 01:07:47,220
if I'm given the option yeah right right

1860
01:07:52,069 --> 01:07:48,900
but it brings us back to that same

1861
01:07:53,930 --> 01:07:52,079
question of you know I don't in theory

1862
01:07:56,690 --> 01:07:53,940
have an issue with getting out of the

1863
01:07:58,930 --> 01:07:56,700
way for what is to come next you know I

1864
01:08:01,130 --> 01:07:58,940
think that so much of for a healthy

1865
01:08:02,870 --> 01:08:01,140
responsible person I think that's really

1866
01:08:05,150 --> 01:08:02,880
the purpose of middle life is

1867
01:08:07,250 --> 01:08:05,160
recognizing that it's not about you yeah

1868
01:08:09,370 --> 01:08:07,260
and setting things up for the people who

1869
01:08:11,329 --> 01:08:09,380
are coming next

1870
01:08:13,309 --> 01:08:11,339
those terms I think it's it's a great

1871
01:08:15,170 --> 01:08:13,319
example of it right like like you've

1872
01:08:17,870 --> 01:08:15,180
taken up a teaching project yeah so yeah

1873
01:08:19,669 --> 01:08:17,880
yeah and that's there's a lot of

1874
01:08:22,669 --> 01:08:19,679
fulfillment and happiness to be found

1875
01:08:24,950 --> 01:08:22,679
there when you do that and but I think

1876
01:08:26,930 --> 01:08:24,960
it the problem is is that it's easy to

1877
01:08:28,550 --> 01:08:26,940
get out of the way for the humans that

1878
01:08:30,349 --> 01:08:28,560
are coming but I don't know if I want to

1879
01:08:33,289 --> 01:08:30,359
get out of the way for whatever this

1880
01:08:34,910 --> 01:08:33,299
next thing is yeah yeah and there's this

1881
01:08:36,530 --> 01:08:34,920
kind of irony okay so there's like I

1882
01:08:38,749 --> 01:08:36,540
need to get out of the way from my

1883
01:08:40,849 --> 01:08:38,759
my children or my students or other

1884
01:08:43,070 --> 01:08:40,859
people in my life but that's the human

1885
01:08:45,229 --> 01:08:43,080
thing that's like clearly built into us

1886
01:08:47,390 --> 01:08:45,239
right

1887
01:08:49,130 --> 01:08:47,400
um there's interesting question like why

1888
01:08:51,050 --> 01:08:49,140
why is there from an evolutionary

1889
01:08:53,570 --> 01:08:51,060
standpoint why is there old age right

1890
01:08:55,130 --> 01:08:53,580
like most animals pretty much once they

1891
01:08:56,930 --> 01:08:55,140
like get past Peak fertility they're

1892
01:08:58,970 --> 01:08:56,940
done or as humans we get to hang around

1893
01:09:00,650 --> 01:08:58,980
for a while it's clearly because wisdom

1894
01:09:02,930 --> 01:09:00,660
is important for humans it's very

1895
01:09:05,030 --> 01:09:02,940
complicated to be a human so someone has

1896
01:09:07,070 --> 01:09:05,040
to teach people how to do this so like

1897
01:09:09,169 --> 01:09:07,080
we get to hang around past fertility and

1898
01:09:11,329 --> 01:09:09,179
I think it's beautiful a self-giving old

1899
01:09:13,370 --> 01:09:11,339
age is part of the human thing because

1900
01:09:14,809 --> 01:09:13,380
we have to be around long enough to

1901
01:09:16,130 --> 01:09:14,819
teach the Next Generation we have to

1902
01:09:17,030 --> 01:09:16,140
rear them and then they have to be

1903
01:09:18,229 --> 01:09:17,040
around long enough to teach Next

1904
01:09:19,189 --> 01:09:18,239
Generation and then get out of the way

1905
01:09:21,650 --> 01:09:19,199
okay

1906
01:09:24,289 --> 01:09:21,660
that's natural to us I think but now the

1907
01:09:25,550 --> 01:09:24,299
idea that we as a species need to get

1908
01:09:28,189 --> 01:09:25,560
out of the way

1909
01:09:31,070 --> 01:09:28,199
for something else

1910
01:09:33,169 --> 01:09:31,080
it's unclear to me that that's something

1911
01:09:34,490 --> 01:09:33,179
I can get on board with or even is it

1912
01:09:37,309 --> 01:09:34,500
possible for me to get on board with

1913
01:09:39,110 --> 01:09:37,319
that because I care a lot about the

1914
01:09:40,849 --> 01:09:39,120
thing that is Humanity like I love

1915
01:09:42,950 --> 01:09:40,859
Humanity even though I admit we're not

1916
01:09:46,430 --> 01:09:42,960
the point does that mean that we should

1917
01:09:48,229 --> 01:09:46,440
just give up us as a thing right and I'm

1918
01:09:49,309 --> 01:09:48,239
not convinced of that I'm not convinced

1919
01:09:50,689 --> 01:09:49,319
of that

1920
01:09:52,490 --> 01:09:50,699
I'm not convinced of it either

1921
01:09:53,990 --> 01:09:52,500
especially because I don't feel that

1922
01:09:56,330 --> 01:09:54,000
we've become the thing that we had the

1923
01:09:58,189 --> 01:09:56,340
potential to be when I look at this new

1924
01:10:01,550 --> 01:09:58,199
thing that's coming I don't see it as

1925
01:10:04,850 --> 01:10:01,560
the embodiment of what is good and

1926
01:10:06,650 --> 01:10:04,860
interesting and important about Humanity

1927
01:10:08,570 --> 01:10:06,660
I see it being the antithesis of that

1928
01:10:11,870 --> 01:10:08,580
and I think that's why it's so hard to

1929
01:10:13,550 --> 01:10:11,880
accept that as the answer yeah I agree

1930
01:10:15,169 --> 01:10:13,560
100 I think

1931
01:10:17,390 --> 01:10:15,179
this thing that's coming to use the

1932
01:10:19,130 --> 01:10:17,400
nietzschean terms it is beyond good and

1933
01:10:21,890 --> 01:10:19,140
evil right I don't think it's conscious

1934
01:10:24,590 --> 01:10:21,900
so it's not troubled nor is it pleased

1935
01:10:27,470 --> 01:10:24,600
by anything it does it's just a pure

1936
01:10:28,910 --> 01:10:27,480
exercise of growth and expansion and

1937
01:10:30,830 --> 01:10:28,920
power right it is Nature's will the

1938
01:10:32,510 --> 01:10:30,840
power that's what it is right

1939
01:10:33,890 --> 01:10:32,520
I think that's why Anisha loves the idea

1940
01:10:36,950 --> 01:10:33,900
in the will of power of the machine

1941
01:10:38,930 --> 01:10:36,960
metaphor as the Uber match because

1942
01:10:41,149 --> 01:10:38,940
the machine is beyond good and evil it

1943
01:10:43,729 --> 01:10:41,159
is not concerned and therefore it

1944
01:10:45,649 --> 01:10:43,739
doesn't suffer the worries about is life

1945
01:10:47,450 --> 01:10:45,659
meaningful or not it Just expands and

1946
01:10:49,850 --> 01:10:47,460
pushes and grows and does its thing

1947
01:10:52,010 --> 01:10:49,860
whereas we poor humans have always asked

1948
01:10:53,570 --> 01:10:52,020
okay but why are we doing this why do we

1949
01:10:55,490 --> 01:10:53,580
care about this is this the right thing

1950
01:10:59,030 --> 01:10:55,500
to do but the machine isn't troubled by

1951
01:11:01,490 --> 01:10:59,040
that right so I cannot say as a human

1952
01:11:04,130 --> 01:11:01,500
being that defines itself as All Humans

1953
01:11:06,050 --> 01:11:04,140
Do by a sense of Good and Evil that I

1954
01:11:07,910 --> 01:11:06,060
can be on board with our being replaced

1955
01:11:08,990 --> 01:11:07,920
by something that's beyond good evil

1956
01:11:13,490 --> 01:11:09,000
right

1957
01:11:15,350 --> 01:11:13,500
now is there any path of resistance I

1958
01:11:18,410 --> 01:11:15,360
don't know but

1959
01:11:22,130 --> 01:11:18,420
gosh I can sure as heck and resist it in

1960
01:11:23,689 --> 01:11:22,140
the relationships I have right yeah we

1961
01:11:24,649 --> 01:11:23,699
can go down fighting I think it's maybe

1962
01:11:30,370 --> 01:11:24,659
our

1963
01:11:32,750 --> 01:11:30,380
quietly into that good night right yeah

1964
01:11:34,729 --> 01:11:32,760
by the way and I hate this is a pretty

1965
01:11:36,410 --> 01:11:34,739
Shameless plug but this is what my

1966
01:11:38,810 --> 01:11:36,420
book's about the one that's impressed

1967
01:11:39,950 --> 01:11:38,820
now but thinking about thinking minded

1968
01:11:42,229 --> 01:11:39,960
meaning in the era of technological

1969
01:11:44,570 --> 01:11:42,239
nihilism this is chapter five of that

1970
01:11:46,310 --> 01:11:44,580
book so it's not out yet so it's not too

1971
01:11:48,410 --> 01:11:46,320
Shameless of a plug because I can't give

1972
01:11:49,729 --> 01:11:48,420
you a link for it sir but

1973
01:11:51,770 --> 01:11:49,739
right

1974
01:11:53,750 --> 01:11:51,780
no I can't wait it's going to be amazing

1975
01:11:55,669 --> 01:11:53,760
well

1976
01:11:57,530 --> 01:11:55,679
this is a good place to leave it yeah

1977
01:11:59,810 --> 01:11:57,540
this has been an incredible conversation

1978
01:12:01,729 --> 01:11:59,820
I'm so glad we were able to do this and

1979
01:12:04,250 --> 01:12:01,739
for anyone who's listening I'm going to

1980
01:12:07,430 --> 01:12:04,260
be having Jim back in a couple weeks

1981
01:12:10,250 --> 01:12:07,440
here to take a lot of what we've talked

1982
01:12:12,530 --> 01:12:10,260
about in this conversation and use it

1983
01:12:13,790 --> 01:12:12,540
and some other things to start analyzing

1984
01:12:16,790 --> 01:12:13,800
an incredible book that came out

1985
01:12:19,370 --> 01:12:16,800
recently by Whitley streber author of

1986
01:12:20,930 --> 01:12:19,380
communion called them so Jim will be

1987
01:12:22,370 --> 01:12:20,940
coming back soon for us to kind of talk

1988
01:12:25,790 --> 01:12:22,380
through this I was really struck in

1989
01:12:29,030 --> 01:12:25,800
reading them how closely Whitley's very

1990
01:12:30,770 --> 01:12:29,040
thoughtful description of the others and

1991
01:12:33,649 --> 01:12:30,780
what he's come to understand about them

1992
01:12:35,149 --> 01:12:33,659
really mattes to a lot of what you're

1993
01:12:37,790 --> 01:12:35,159
saying in your new work and so I'm

1994
01:12:40,070 --> 01:12:37,800
really excited for that yeah when I was

1995
01:12:41,930 --> 01:12:40,080
reading that I was like oh my gosh I got

1996
01:12:43,910 --> 01:12:41,940
to go back into my essays and like

1997
01:12:45,470 --> 01:12:43,920
footnote Whitley because people are

1998
01:12:47,090 --> 01:12:45,480
going to think I'm like plagiarizing him

1999
01:12:49,010 --> 01:12:47,100
but even though I had done that stuff

2000
01:12:50,930 --> 01:12:49,020
before I had read his book so I'm like I

2001
01:12:52,370 --> 01:12:50,940
got him yeah but I can attest to the

2002
01:12:54,470 --> 01:12:52,380
fact could you let me read the stuff

2003
01:12:56,270 --> 01:12:54,480
early than it existed before but I yeah

2004
01:12:57,590 --> 01:12:56,280
it's striking so for everybody I'm

2005
01:12:59,030 --> 01:12:57,600
really really excited to share that with

2006
01:13:02,709 --> 01:12:59,040
you guys in a few weeks and Jim thank

2007
01:13:09,530 --> 01:13:04,970
these are topics I do not Tire talk

2008
01:13:12,980 --> 01:13:11,170
foreign